Can we refrain form taking pot shots at each other as it isn't helping the argument.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

'snip' No.

SPOT on Ryan!

Danny most teams have holes...the saints remained competitive without NR....we can't and never will have the perfect team of 22 1st rounders....but we have the base of a very good list IMO which should be performing a lot better than it is...some major re treads at the pies and saints are playing like men possessed with their new clubs....why?

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"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre

J&K, how about you give us something in-depth on why our list is better than 2 of the top 4.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but saying it and showing why are two different things.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Name the 'retreads' at the Pies or do you mean Jolly and...and who exactly?

For St Kilda - people forever underrate this list but I will grant you that Ross gets the utmost out of his chess pieces - still they have an unbelievable Forward, midfield and a @#$%&! good backline. I think he is an excellent coach.

Malthause on the weekend said he feels now they have the depth, the experience, the list duplication, about right - how long as that taken him!!!!!

We have the basis of a very good list but it is not at this time a top four list.

'Can Ratts get us there?' Is a very different question to saying 'we should be there already.'

We are tracking about right, given the list, the holes, the experience etc

which has nothing to do with whether I am entirely happy with Ratts or not, but it seems, to me, that too be to many people are all or nothing.

It must be all Ratts fault or not at all.

Its just silly.

The truth is Ratts is part of the equation

as are the other coaches

as are the support staff

the board

as are the players themselves

Has Murph pushed as hard as he could to be who he could be?

Has Gibbs?

Has Betts?

Yarran?

and so on, Truth is, I do not know.

If not, has Ratts and Co tried to push them as hard as they needed?

Are there niggles holding some players back?

Did 7 out of 8 at Ethiad hurt this team in ways we do not get (ie Look at Sydney's record at Ethiad compared to MCG - why the difference? Does Ethiad suoit the in close, strong teams while MCG offers more space to spread? etc)

so many factors. Ratts is just 1

but in the end the most important thing for this club is to be crystal clear about the list

where it is at

what is needed etc.

At this point we are not a top 4 in comparison to any of the top four teams. No way. And that has nothing to do with Ratts.

I agree though, the basis is very sound

and I think if next year

Kruise comes back as good (or better)

if Waite can eradicate the silly offenses

If Hendo can develop

and if we can get a full year out of Bower

then maybe next year (with development from Yazz and some others) we just might be one soon.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

You might say St Kilda has a lot of ordinary players who are well coached. It's debatable, but I can see the argument that Carlton has a list with similar quality. Much better? NO.

I'm not making excuses for the club, but St Kilda is a very mature team - their guns are at their peak - Goddard, Dal, Hayes, Roo, Montagna, Fisher who average around 27 y.o. Apart from Judd we have Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer, Yarran, as top end talent with Simpson the only other top performer.

Which other top 4 team is our list "much better" than? Geelong? Bulldogs? Collingwood? No where near them. The Dogs have a guy like Moles do a job and kick 2 barnstorming goals, and he's their 20th-22nd picked.

This is why I was worried about trading a high pick away (regardless whether Mclean comes good). We're not in a position to do that. Lucas looks fantastic. But we need more young class to replace or put pressure on Scotland, Houlihan, Carrazzo, Thornton.

Not saying the talent we do have is being well developed or coached. Just that the talent isn't quite there either.

Instead of your usual plethora of short posts potting Ratten, can you give us one longer post expanding on the above point. I'm not sure which two teams you mean and would like you to demonstrate for us who they are and why our list is "much better" than theirs, including reference to the major retreads. Thanks in advance.

I was rather wondering about that myself.
Perhaps he hadn't read the papers yet.

Jeez Danny.....I agree with all of that!

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

That's what I thought!............

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Dawson Farren Ray Schneider Kosi Gwilt Macqualter Gardiner Medhurst Obrien Heath Shaw obree leigh brown dawes anthony davis Maxwell etc there are more but I don't have their lists in front of me but u get my drift...re treads or average players at best...what I meant by our list is much better than two of the top four teams is our LIST not the current performance of that list....

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"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre

You have got at least 3 recent All Australian players in that list.

yeah but average all australians

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

We'd be lucky to have 3 different All Australian Players in the last 8 years.

Off the top of my head Gardiner was pick 1, Kosi was pick 2, Ray was pick 4 and McQualter was in the teens.

I think we need to be a little careful placing too much importance on what number a player was drafted at when assessing a team. It's the quality of football a player produces that matters. We may have a lot of high draft picks but it's not difficult to name players picked later in a draft that, at the moment, are superior footballers.

Potential is all well and good, and keeps a lot of us hoping, but sometimes it's realised and sometimes it's not. It's performance that matters and based on that I'm struggling to see how we can claim to have a better list than any of the top four, and add Hawthorn to make at least five.

By that rationale we'd have

Walker, Jamison, Thornton, Carrazzo, Joseph, Johnson, McLean, Hadley, Anderson, Warnock, Hampson, Houlihan and Henderson are all average to crap players.

Dawes is ahead of Henderson this year
Anthony is a bit of a Dud but would have gotten more games as a Blue
Shaw is ahead of Russell and Walker, O'Brien is ahead of Walks too as sick as that makes me.
Medhurst would get a game every day of the week for the blues
Gardiner is a better player at this time then the 2 rucks mentioned above, would easily get a game as a second ruck for us behind Kruezer
Leigh Brown has had a similar year to Hoops, both are slow and lazy but have kicked a few goals
Ray is a good player

Our list looks better FOR THE FUTURE certainly, but this year? Nope. Not even close.

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#23: Lachlan Henderson

Question the last statement, but agree with everything else.

A simple test is to try and work out who on our list would get a regular game at one of these clubs.
Obviously Judd. I'd add Simpson with some confidence. After that I think it gets contentious.

Despite all that though, I still think that Collingwood are set up for a fall and if we want the four points more than they do then I reckon they're there for the taking.