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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Rod McGregor

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jimmae wrote:
I didn't even bother with the rest because they either referred to list management, player confidence and fitness, and interchange rotations.

Every club wants to bring pride, passion and g&d to whatever game plan they take to the field, and the people in the coaches box and recruitment departments have their own way of doing things, typically built off the same fundamentals.

The only one I'll put a spotlight on is the rotating taggers of Collingwood. You did notice last season when we played Houlihan in a tagging role at times, yes? You noticed we're now doing it with Carrazzo? We're trying to instil a sense of defensive responsibility in what had previously shown itself to be an overwhelmingly attack-minded midfield. Once they get that (and they're physically strong enough in the odd case), then we can have multiple tagging options. In the mean time we have Joseph & Armfield to call on, at the expense of intelligent midfield play and a big body in the clinches.

Ratten & co. have clearly been attempting to address this issue with the recruitment of Tuohy, Armfield, Joseph, Robinson, Cachia, McLean, Hadley, Lucas, and in the coaching of of Russell, Walker, Carrazzo, Grigg, Houlihan & Browne. Clear as day.


Then can you describe to me Rattens vison. His structure, setups, presses/zones etc and don't go off the 'one' mighty performance gainst the Saints. Can you please descibe to me what the team stands for?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Success.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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aido wrote:
Then can you describe to me Rattens vison. His structure, setups, presses/zones etc and don't go off the 'one' mighty performance gainst the Saints. Can you please descibe to me what the team stands for?

Essentially Ratten is a big believer in counter-attack football, and looks to disrupt the opposition's ball movement at every line, then move the ball up-field quickly to take advantage of 1-on-1 opportunities that present. That much you've already touched on.

He initially did this with man-on-man football and it worked a treat until Essendon* showed that raw pace and drawing our forward line up field exposed a lack of top-level pace and defensive nous through midfield. This spurred him into developing a zone set-up for the players to implement such that pace would become less of an issue and players like Murphy and Gibbs would excel with their read of the play. Sound idea and after Hawthorn's GF win; everyone was doing it.

The problem? Pagan was notorious for 1-on-1 football and put only a select few in charge of dropping in the hole in defence. Think back and remember the year of Teague, the year of Waite, etc. Very few of the players had essentially dropped the idea of zones from their football itinerary pretty much when they set foot in the club. It's a slow process that's going to take some time yet, but thankfully we can accelerate this by recruiting individuals like McLean, Lucas & Davies who show an understanding of what's required.

In terms of secondary avenues to the forward line, Ratten has again become focussed on delivering to an out-numbered forward unit, i.e. piercing a zone defence. Regardless of Hawthorn & St Kilda, the last 10 years of football has always featured some form of genuine zone in the D50 beyond a man in the hole: flooding, rolling midfield, etc. The thinking is obvious: if you can manipulate an outnumbered situation to your advantage, you can defeat anything thrown at you. We started to combat this with switching the play ala the Pagan era, then developed to wrong-footing the opposition with misdirection handballs.

The problem with these methods of defending and moving the ball around is that we don't yet have enough good decision makers with and without the ball to pull this off as yet. For every Bower or Armfield defensively, there's a Joseph or Carrazzo, and for every Murphy & Judd offensively, there's an Armfield or Joseph. You're never going to get everyone on the same level, but there's a gulf in understanding that needs to be closed down a bit more.

So while these ideas are great in theory, when you've got two switches and a misdirection handball in one ball movement and your team is slow on the uptake or the ball carrier has missed a clear option, you're going to be on your own on an empty wing as the opposition have just about closed down any gaps in their zone.

You lose confidence, players start over-committing in terms of numbers to 50/50 contests, becoming single-minded in their tasks and unwilling to commit what seems like a fruitless cause. They all run forward, they all run back and don't really care about the space they're minding because no one else seems to be either. Fingers get pointed, names are named, etc etc etc.

Game plans are simple enough. Individual strategies are more complex, and coaching them into every single player is always going to be on a different timetable. It's those latter tasks that are the challenge of every coach in every sport, ever. That's the challenge for Ratten and his team, and I also suspect that as others have identified, Teague & Lappin are really behind the 8-ball in this respect.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:15 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Yes....I fear for Skinny's future at the Club.......there's just no forwardline presence at all.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Ratten may have a game plan that isn't working but then how do you explain:
poor tackling technique
poor spoiling technique
Players who appear to have gone backwards under his guidance: Gibbs, Thornton,
Also he has to be accountable for his poor choice of assistants


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:01 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Talking of defence and tackling......are Storm still training at Visy Park?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:16 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Warby wrote:
Talking of defence and tackling......are Storm still training at Visy Park?


Storm players OWN Visy Park

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:19 pm 
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Bruce Comben

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Does anyone, anywhere, actually think that Ratts is a good coach, or even a coach with a lot of potential? Does anyone think that he is the man to mastermind our next premiership??? I certainly dont, and i cant see how anyone can think he is a good coach, or that he is the man to lead us to our next premiership, therefore, I think the answer is simple, he must leave!! Give him the rest of the season, as our season is already wrecked, and part ways! Wish our club was forward thinking enough to notcie one B.Scott


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:32 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Michael Jezz wrote:
Ratten may have a game plan that isn't working but then how do you explain:
poor tackling technique

I blame the players on that one
Quote:
poor spoiling technique

Haven't noticed an issue with this?

Quote:
Players who appear to have gone backwards under his guidance: Gibbs, Thornton

Thornton was a better player last year than he ever was under Pagan. The same can be said for Gibbs' last two years.

Gibbs had what, less than a season under Pagan? Spent in the back pocket no less. You're not seriously suggesting he was better as a junior are you?

Quote:
Also he has to be accountable for his poor choice of assistants

I agree, but he doesn't have to be entirely accountable for their failures.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:36 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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FWIW Cotchin won't be playing against us in round 20 after being suspended for 4 matches.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:23 pm 
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Bruce Comben

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Does anyone, anywhere, actually think that Ratts is a good coach, or even a coach with a lot of potential? Does anyone think that he is the man to mastermind our next premiership??? I certainly dont, and i cant see how anyone can think he is a good coach, or that he is the man to lead us to our next premiership, therefore, I think the answer is simple, he must leave!! Give him the rest of the season, as our season is already wrecked, and part ways! Wish our club was forward thinking enough to notcie one B.Scott


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Is there a really bad echo in here?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:41 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Davo79 wrote:
Does anyone, anywhere, actually think that Ratts is a good coach, or even a coach with a lot of potential? Does anyone think that he is the man to mastermind our next premiership??? I certainly dont, and i cant see how anyone can think he is a good coach, or that he is the man to lead us to our next premiership, therefore, I think the answer is simple, he must leave!! Give him the rest of the season, as our season is already wrecked, and part ways! Wish our club was forward thinking enough to notcie one B.Scott



a few pople did when we were winning

none when we are losing

a bit like every other football club - ever!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:55 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Aint got nothin to do with the game plan.
We aint hungry,and we aint angry or ferocious...................our first quarter against the ugly ducklings was putrid coz all we were thinkin' about was what we were gonna do when we got it..............greatest start to any gameplan is to get the pill first.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:35 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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Mickstar wrote:
Aint got nothin to do with the game plan.
We aint hungry,and we aint angry or ferocious...................our first quarter against the ugly ducklings was putrid coz all we were thinkin' about was what we were gonna do when we got it..............greatest start to any gameplan is to get the pill first.


I agree Mickstar.
Ferocious comes from within. It's tribal, it's serious its angry and it's aggressive.

I reckon Ratts may be a bit too much New Age for the players' own good He should be screaming the message down their @#$%&! throats: "Get the @#$%&! nut FFS, and give it to your @#$%&! mate in a better position. Get in first!!".

DO DON'T THINK!!
.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:34 pm 
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John Nicholls
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There's been much understandable angst since Sunday's dismal effort across this and other forums. It is clear to me that we will just have to tough it out until the end of the year. Ratts et al won't be making any radical changes between now and the end of the season. I don't expect us to make the finals. If we do, it will be some turn around. My expectations are now rock bottom for this side given what we have seen these past 6 weeks. I will continue to watch in the grim hope that we will improve and if we do, then that will be a bonus.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:08 am 
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formerly BlueRob
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I think we should replace Ratten with the Bunderberg Rum Bear. Makes about as much sence as I have heard on this topic.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:17 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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BlueRob wrote:
I think we should replace Ratten with the Bunderberg Rum Bear. Makes about as much sence as I have heard on this topic.


How about Alfred E Neuman...at least he looks like Ratts....

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:23 am 
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Rod Ashman
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A hypothetical...

If we were looking to appoint a coach now, does anyone here believe that the Club would appoint Ratten (based on what we know about his coaching at this point in time)?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:34 am 
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Ken Hunter
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well obviously Sticks and co would :lol:

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