[quote="Cazzesman"]So by that theory are you suggesting every club should change Coaches every 5 years if they don't win the Cup?









cazzeman,
The Geelong comparison does have some merit but there are some big differences


1 The Steve Johnson incident in 2007 was the turning point at the club.
Prior to that Ablett was told in front of the playing group that if he didnt train harder he woudnt get any better.
Whatever effect it had on Ablett was magnifyed ten fold when Johnson was suspended for being pissed new years eve for 4 or 5 actual playing weeks.
That has never happened at Carlton even with plenty of opportunites to punish players for stupid behaviour. We have been way too soft. period


2 Ablett, Bartlel, Chapman played plenty of reserves footy. A flag in 2002. Besides learning the basics and getting their bodies ready for senior footy it taught them the value of playing seniors. They appreciate it more because they earnt their stripes the hard way.

Cant say that for the likes of Houlihan and co


3 A decent President. Costa is a gun. A terrific leader wholloves the club is excellent at running a together organisation but doesnt put up with any shit.

I could go on

Ratten in my view has no got a clear path to a flag and player development is below par in my view.

I think with Geelong people underestimate the impact of a great CEO and I mean great. Brian Cook was Pratt's first choice remember. Greg Swann number two. He turned West Coast culture around and did the same at Geelong. The Presidents role is overrated at AFL clubs. Only criteria in my book is that the CEO and Pres are on the same page and don't contradict each other.

Yep agree there
Cook is a good operator

It breaks my heart to see SOS doing such a great job at St.Kilda......how did that happen?

A legendary Carlton name who has formed a hard relentless, yet attacking backline at another Club.

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

I think the Mark Thompson argument, that appears to be that every coach who is given the same time as Thompson will achieve the same result is a little flawed.

Richmond, if only they had held onto Danny Frawley for a few more years or Wallace for a few more years would have been Geelong. Or indeed if only we hadn't sacked Pagan we would be Geelong.

As Leigh Mathews said many times, the main quality of a premiership coach is the quality of his players. And the judgement you make about a coach is how good is the list and is he getting the best out of them. Is he making the sum of the parts greater than the whole.

In recent years Paul Roos, Nasty Clarkson and Ross Lyon have overachieved with their lists. Thompson has got two flags out of the best list and missed one he should have won (not to mention barely falling over the line in the 2007 prelim.

The questionmark over Ratts is whether he is getting the best out of the list. Can he make the team greater than the sum of the individuals or not.

I don't think he will ever coach us to a flag and maybe that will be partly because at the moment we don't have a list capable of getting there and partly because he is a very inexperienced and unproven coach seems to have surrounded himself with totally inexperienced and unchallenging assistants. He relies on regurgitating stats and doesn't seem to be able to get a consistent and really tough commitment from most of the players most of the time. We rely way to much on Judd who doesn't need a coach. He will and should get another year but if we continue to fall away as we have in the past 6 weeks I don't see much improvement next year and we will be looking for a new coach in 2012, and lets hope we look further than a bigheaded no experience dud like Voss. Let's have a proper process like all the other clubs not like Carlton circa 1975.

1 obvious reason is where the club was at when the Coach took over. If you were taking over Freo now then you are on the perfect up turn. If you were taking over West Coast now you are hitting the bottom. Ratts got us at the bottom but we are on the up. We may have stalled the past month but the graph is still going up.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Cazz.......why do you always spoil things by making sense?.....

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Q. What will constitute a pass for Ratts this year?


A. Being sacked or he resign...

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31-3-2015 - R.I.P AFL, corrupted lying pricks
12-5-2015 - Go WADA
18-8-2015 - Suffer Hird* u lying flower
12-1-2016 - CAS goes bang, happy new year.. Drugcheats forever..

MM took Collingwood from bottom to 2nd in 3 years. Clarko from bottom to premiers in 4. Yes I'm selectively picking the successes but FFS, enough with the excuses of our past dark days. IMHO, BR will not take Carlton to the last Sat in Sept. I don't know who will. I just hope the club makes the right decision at the end of BR's current contract.

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

They should review whether the current coach is the right one every year but history shows that the 5 year mark is a good guide.. Go back to the 60s and 70s and test the theory

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T E A M

It's his 3rd year. You would agree that the club would have to be very close to retain him past 5 if we hadn't won it already. For mine we'd have to be in Collingwood or St Kilda's current position. Not where the Bulldogs are.

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T E A M

Every club does review everything at the end of each year. CFC is no different. Not sure that 40 years ago is relevant to todays AFL but I get your point on the statistics. I just don't think it is as simple as that as Robert Walls has pointed out in his article.

When it is all said and done there are 7 games to go. Ratts will be here for the last 7 games regardless or any supporter angst and talkback vitriol. At the end of 2010 the picture will be clearer on him and the list. Not long to go for both pro and anti camps.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

I'm a coaches man and I think he will get a pass mark but make finals
Restructure the forward line after Fev and develop young players are a minimum
Should make finals but really have played ordinary football the last 6 weeks -acid test is now
Develop /restructure forward line after fev -done that with Henderson Yarran garlett eddie
Develop young players -Yarran Hendo Jacobs Robinson Lucas all better than last year

Yes and this is where many seem to have the crystal ball happening and are able to tell the future.

In 2007 when Ratts took over no supporter wanted him to win a game. They got their wish and we got Special K as a result.

In 08 we went from 16th to 11th

In 09 we went from 11th to 7th and a final interstate that we all agree we should have won. Ratts gets the criticism for the loss but not for the fact we were 30 pts up at 3/4 time.

In 10 after 15rds post Fev with a forward line of mostly kids we are 8/7 with more wins than losses.

The 'What Ifs' from here on in are so diverse that the argument is basically a waste of time.

What part of Robert Walls stats didn't you read? Ratts has Coached 67 (?) games. How do his results so far, stack up against the likes of Thompson, Malthouse, Eade, Roos etc at the same time. Were those guys coming from 16th when they took over?

The crystal ball seems clear for some and cloudy for others. Lets just wait for the season the finish then we can deal with facts and not 'what ifs'.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

I think what people really find hard to take is the apparent lack of effort in recent games. People can take losing (sort of) but losing without a whimper is unacceptable. Everything you are saying is spt on Caz, but when you have 9 tackles in a half of football that reeksof a team that just gave up. It was all too hard and they gave up trying. They didn't just lose because they weren't good enough to match the dogs or just because they made too many mistakes trying to do the right thing. They completely dropped their bundle.

When this happens, it is only natural for supporters to want to know why this occurred. Particularly when it has happened on multiple occasions this year. Supporters look to the figurehead of the teams performance - the coach. They didn't lose because they don't know how to kick, mark, handball, tackle or run. All players can do these things and do them pretty damn good.... you don't get an AFL contract if you can't. So then it has to come down to mentality.

Motivation. Desire. Team ethos. Confidence. Pride. These things start and finish with the coach. these were lacking in major ways last sunday evening, and it is this that undermines confidence in Brett Ratten.

Brett ratten as a motivator of men. Of instilling belief in what he preaches. As a communicator. As a respected leader of men. This is what concerns many of us. I hope they are unwarranted concerns, and I think the next 7 games will give an enormous indication of whether these concerns are founded or not. Ladder position does not give pass or fail for Brett Ratten this year. But another performance like Hawthorn, North Melbourne, Fremantle or in particular the Bulldogs games, and Brett Ratten has failed in 2010. Because a coach who 'has' his players doesn't continue to have the same tripe that his payers served up to him last week, served up repeatedly.

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Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

The cranium summed up what I, and I daresay many other supporters have been saying quite perfectly.
As for Cazz's point:

We had glaring structural weaknesses last year in our coaching camp, and glaring structural weaknesses with our game plan and overall on field performance. None of these were addressed last year at all in our "review."

In fact, our "reviews" have been akin to a Government rubber stamping legislation with control of both Houses of Parliament.

Excellent post. Pretty much sums up my feelings.

I don't want Ratts to fail. We've just had too many unacceptable performances this year and our most recent form is poor to say the least. IMHO last weeks performance had all the hallmarks of a season spiralling out of control and that bothers me greatly.

There is still a third of the season to go and I certainly hope we can get back to playing our best footy. If we continue to go the way we are heading now, I hope the club will do a proper 'review' and have the balls to make the tough decisions and address the situation.

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We are on our way back...

I'm with Caz wait till end of the year.... nothing against Ratts but if Leigh Mathews showed interest wouldn't u throw the kitchen sink at him For mine mouth watering.

IMO we are on the wrong track as evidence by Sundays game

I got my hopes up this week until Ellard was named an emergency

There is 2 reasons we had 37 tackles a dozen or so in the second half

1

We have one game plan. Kick it quickly into an open 50 and hope for the best.
Lake and co foiled that one so whats plan b
Nothing. Ratten made little change. What about Walker to Lake
What about O'Hailpin to defence
What about Thornton up forward
Judd to the forward 50

Actually there is plan b
Hold the ball up and play tempo footy when your 6 goals down halfway into the second quarter


Ratten has had 3 years to come up with a number of game strategies and he has come up with one when it relates to being proactive. It worked well against both Grand Finalists and then opposition teams have figured us out by putting defenders behind the ball.

Ratten doesnt adjust and now we are a basket case player moral suffers and the basics like tackling are forgotten


2 The coaching staff have been way too soft on the players.Look no further than the selections this week.
2 players dropped
I repeat 2
Now with a tackle count that low the coach needs to take a stand and say in such an important game that is unacceptable

But no we dont want to change things too much because if we do that we might miss out on the 8.


So a guy like Ellard who really deserves a game ahead of the dozen imposters who peformed so pathetically Sunday evening doesnt get a gig unless there is a late change.

Ellard will give you 100% atleast

There are about 12 players who should have been dropped but havent been. Of course that would be crazy to do that but Ratten hasnt made the big enough statement. Point is players know they can get away with it.

Ratten is too nice. His heart is in the right place but he neither has the brains or the balls to deliver.

The quarter time footage last week of Malthouse telling Didak and Johnson to follow the team strategy sums up what this club needs.

We need a new coach
and a thorough interview process to get the right one.

Excellent post.

This next period is the THE moment for Ratts, IMO.

He needs to again create an effective system of play that the players at his disposal can absorb, understand, have confidence in and execute.
It's as simple as that.