how many more games do we need to develop toughness as opposed to North ? we have to stop that excuse of being a young team or inexperienced, tell me how inexperienced the North side is , they had a lot more players than us play with less games than our most inexperienced - their young blokes looked stronger than most of our seniors .

Cordy might have them shaped to be quick but we can't match teams that play hard contest ball - how many tackles didn't stick tonight ? I was continually sick to the stomach on how often they would burst through our players because we were soft . I once counted 4 north players tackling one of us and we had 4 hovering over the ball hoping to get a cheap possie........ski season is well and truly open.

and don't get me started on workrate............perhaps they though it was Hash House Harriers night.........seemed to be happy just jogging to position with op player in tow.

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I have nothing further to add..........for now.

I'm venting for kouta's sake. Anyway, I just think that we should be a bit beyond this. Also, the fact that we are soft is a symptom when you think about it, a symptom of what, your guess is as good as mine. however, it just strikes me as a bit strange to say that we lose because we are not hard enough when we are supposed to be at a level where that kind of thing is not meant to be as much of an issue as it is. Believe it or not, all my whinging just exists to spark debate beyond the superficial, even if you disagree with my own reasoning on the issue. We lose because we are not as tough or switched on as the opposition is a given and doesn't really give us much to go on as to a potential solution.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

We were raped tonight by Maclaren it was the frees he didn't pay that cost us.....that said we looked flat during the warm up whereas norf looked up and about with their wanki shinboner spirit!
7-5 still good though missed great chance tonight

What shits me to tears more than anything is sitting at the game and knowing 10 mins in that we're 'not on'. mentally inept at times like that. How we could not be prepared for that is beyond me. What I actually do suspect, especially after hearing Ratten's presser, is that we focused too much on what they'd dish up, so went out there and sat back, just waiting for them to dish it up.

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"I had to eat"

look on the bright side, at least now when we lose to sides like north we're considered a good scalp. sure better than being the pencil in easybeats of recent years

the 1st qtr was nothing . try watching some of the shit mclaren and kennedy dished up in the next 3.

1st up, we really lacked intensity.
2nd, the umpires murdered us. Mclaren should never be allowed to umpire at AFL level again. No matter how bad we were, if it was consistent or fair, we would have won.

Now for some discussion. I can understand why we selected the team we did, because they didn't want to bring in underdone guys (killed us against the Hawks), wanted more Bullants games into Hendo and McLean, perhaps didn't see a spot for Grigg (ie wanted Browne to get another go). But the big issue with our selected side was that we were totally inflexible. Apart from our two ruckman, we only had 3 true talls and Walker/Thornton as the fourth/fifth mid-talls. I feel this lack of height can only work when we have a quick side in (read Yarran/Lucas/Anderson instead of Browne/Robinson). When we beat Geelong with no Bower and no Waite, we had super run, and were really quick.
The backline obviously struggled, but our forwardline structure really didn't work (and I thought Waite and Betts were our best 2 players). For the 'Setanta and his helpers' set-up to work, we need all 3 helpers (plus Houlihan who had a shocker, and Waite). Given that Yarran wasn't going to be picked, we needed another forward marking option. Henderson is the obvious choice at the minute, but if they were fit/in form, guys like Fisher or White might be able to play this role. If we had that 3rd marking option, Waite could have been swung back, or we would have had options. Thornton back and forward isn't really the flexibility we need.

I figure even when we get Bower back, we need to pick a fast side, and/or Henderson, so Waite can get up the field.

I get that a lot of guys had shockers this week, but we were really limited in what we could do once we were under the pump (other than Gibbs into the middle, but lets be honest, he should be there anyway).

nah i will watch the world cup

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*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

Every single time the umpiring goes against us we wilt for a quarter or a half. EVERY SINGLE F'N TIME!

The umpires were awful but you need to work harder than the opposition to win a game of football at this level. Simple fact is that we were out worked, out hustled, out played for the ball. North played as a team - helping each other out all night. Sure, their skill errors helped us out a lot but they always backed each other up. This Carlton side plays far too often as a team of individuals rather than a complete team effort for one another. When they play as a team, as they did sparingly tonight, it's beautiful and inspired football and we're more than capable of beating any team in the competition. When we don't we get absolutely murdered. Stop relying on Chris Judd breaking packs and being absolutely brilliant and work for him. Communication on the ground is important and when we lose it is non-existant - AJ should never have been caught holding the pill - a classic case of no one talking it up to him.

The players believe their own hype every single time. Robert Walls article pointed out to me that we were going to lose tonight.

I wonder how many of them thought "It's okay if we're lousy in the first half because North doesn't run out games and we'll run all over them...." so they didn't bother showing up in the first half and by the time they tried to get their engines running it was far too late.

Still too much of a down hill team. Still a lot of holes.

Too many players who aren't worthy of their spots in the squad on a consistent enough basis -- Mr O'hAilpin plays one good game (or two) a month and that's good enough to retain his spot in the side while we have a kid who kicks eight goals in the reserves and can't get a look in? Play the three (Waite, Henderson and O'hAilpin) together or drop Setanta and give the kid who could be the future the experience he deserves. Clearly, we're still a step below that of a true premiership team yet the way they're using Henderson he still wont be up to par when the rest of the team is.

what a @#$%&! shit start to the long weekend
shows how mentally weak our side is
i was raging at the pathetic umpiring
i have never ever seen it so one sided
everytime we seemed to go forward with any momentum
*WHISTLE* free kick North
even when we had the advantage with judd on the burst it was brought back to our man without advantage
north had EVERYTHING go there way
carrazzo owned harvey that lil rat
bring back our players from vfl

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Better to die standing than to live on your knees...
CAR17ON

For me, that wasn't about effort tonight so the Bombers loss remains the worst. What was disappointing in the extreme was the woeful skills and the poor decision-making. I cannot recall seeing a forward 50 entry that involved someone in a navy blue jumper lowering their eyes and hitting another guy in a navy blue jumper on a lead - it was back to the Tommy Hafey school of footy.

I think our backline got very skilfully outpointed from the coach's box - Walker is not a true CHB and got found out, Russell is not suited to the goal-sneaks but is better matched on someone like Stevie J - Armfield was off the pace coming back and with Thornton and Jamo not great at providing the rebound, we lost our way totally.

It's too easy to say they are soft, they didn't want it - they did - but they panicked when they got jumped and failed to stick to their guns in terms of strategy more than anything.

Also some individual shockers - O'Hailpin has been average for a few now so has to go, Robinson must be one of the least skilled kicks in the comp (like the endeavour but he plays like he graduated dux at the Hafey Academy). For me, they are the two that have to go - Browne will be lucky to stay too. Finally, tend to agree that Kreuzer would be first to make way if we are considering a change in the ruck.

True. The big coaching win for them was not letting our backline play the way it has been for last 8 weeks. When i saw Hale out on Thurs night i suspected they were up to something . This tactic plus the unstoppable and brilliant game by Thomas made it tough for the Blues to get going tonight.

.........also when you saw Garlett was around the ball you could see his intensity was a lot higher than the rest of the players in Navy Blue.

More players at the contest, more chance of winning.

Harder at the ball in the contest, more chance of winning it.

Lose the contested ball, lose the game.

Blues normally do this stuff well but we lost the edge tonight. Umpiring and the run of the ball, silly free kicks, turnovers early, easy goals ... all factors in sucking the belief out of the team.

Hated the contest between Browne and Thomas for the ball that resulted in NM goal.

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"It was like calling your ex girlfriend after a night on the booze, just a really bad decision".

Kreuzer is tremendous around the ground but consistently gets beaten in the ruck. Sure, we had a lot of clearances tonight but how many of them came from the hands of McIntosh placing the ball into an unfavorable position for North? There were several that I saw - a couple of them led to a quick Carlton foray.

I'd like to see Kreuzer given time at centre half forward and Henderson at full forward with Jarrad Waite being allowed to play his roaming type game on the wing through half forward line. With Kreuzer and Waite presenting at half forward and Henderson being the threat from the goal square the team would find itself with much better balance. Kreuzer would still be allowed to use his around the ground skills to his advantage - the modern game allows the centre half forward to be used in such a manner.

Bring Hammo or Warnock back into the side. Sauce is fine in what he does in the ruck and should keep his position in the side.

North supporters would have crucified their own team had Hale not been dropped. I've never, not once in my entire time following football (my Dad played for North so I tend to follow them very closely) seen North Melbourne deliver their own players the bronx cheers the way in which they were at the end of last week.

I dont believe they'll ever play Hale up forward again. If he gets back into the side before the end of the year he'll be nothing more than second ruck to McIntosh who rests up forward.

The problem with dropping O'hAilpin is that you never know when he's going to hit form or when we are going to need him. Like it or not, he is really one of only about two white hopes for what he does that we have on our list at the moment. With pretty much every one else, what you see is what you get.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Scott McLaren 3 votes.

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Premierships: 1869, 1871, 1873, 1874, 1875, 1877, 1887, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1914, 1915, 1938, 1945, 1947, 1968, 1970, 1972, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1987, 1995.

"GIBBS."

The problem with a player like Setanta is unless you're using him like the Cats use Podsiadly you can never win a premiership with that type of a player in the side because you're not assured of what you're getting every week.

I'd much rather get a kid who may be the future (when we're actually contending for a premiership) like Henderson the opportunity to develop into that type of player. What I fear the most with Hendo getting games in the reserves is for him to be a level behind where we want him to be because of inexperience.

I believe we're almost guaranteed a position in the eight this season with either Setanta or Henderson playing out of the goal square. I'd much rather put up with performances that we saw tonight from Setanta coming from Henderson than from Setanta. At least with Henderson there is a valuable lesson to be learned that you know will ultimately come into play.

I'd almost be tempted to play both Henderson and O'hAilpin, especially if they've decided to stick with Kreuzer being a ruck rather than a forward. Jarrad can be the loose man roaming around the ground.

It's mental toughness just as much as physical toughness, if not more so. Our best side is a bit lopsided towards 'outside' types, if you change the make-up haphazardly you just replace one concern with a possibly bigger one. Good or bad, I don't think we will ever be a side built around brilliant skills and exemplary intestinal fortitude, we'll just have to make it as good as it can be and try to be better at other things, such as a running game, superior match-ups and dare I say it, coaching.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I agree with this, play Waite on the wing so he can get forward and back, and be a linking player. I wouldn't play Hendo out of the square, because he is a true CHF, and that's where we want him to learn his game. O'Hailpin can play FF, but for him to work as a forward target, I think he either needs to be one of 3 targets (rather than one of 2), or have ALL 3 'Little Helpers' (Betts/Garlett/Yarran) helping him.