Saints have some duds alright but there is no deny they have some quality at their top end

a couple of Rolls Royces they have completely out way the duds

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

So our bottom 6 (ok so it's my judgment) from the elimination final against Brisbane were:

Cameron Cloke
Jeff Garlett
Shaun Grigg
Simon Wiggins
Shaun Hampson
Dennis Armfield

We lose Fevola and Stevens from our team. McLean is an automatic inclusion, as is Waite. So returning to our bottom 6... we've lost Cloke, and Wiggins is probably getting past it. But I would have thought at the very least there is room for significant improvement in Garlett, Grigg, Hampson, and Armfield. Plus Hadley comes back in, and Henderson is an option, as is Yarran. I actually think our bottom 6 is substantially better than last year. Is it as good as Geelong's? No. Is it as good as St Kilda's? Probably not. But it is certainly a fair chance of closing the gap.

Spot on Sydney. if you've got 6 guns you might (just might - they still have to win something) be able to make do with some cheapies / leftovers who fill a purpose. Some have great speed, some endurance etc. Corey Jones was recruited at what...22... he wasnt that good and everyone knew it but he's in their best 22 and a very good tagger.

Which brings me to the Armfield assertion. Armfield's pace and dedication to one on ones with the small forwards is exceptional and he'll be OK. He's stuffed up some kicks, particuarly early last season, but I'd have him on my 22 for sure.

And then to the thread....

Reworking the forward line might be a big challenge - the biggest Ratten has had - but if he can't after this pre-season then he'll have failed. To me we have to make the 8 or he has failed. Football is more than ever a team game where all of your 22 have a role,a nd losing one player shouldnt be seen as a reason to undermine any commitment. Those saying we dont have the cattle are stuck in a 5 years ago mindset. If we cannot get a functioning forward line to win enough games with:

* Three good leading forwards - Setanta, Henderson, waite (including one with some freakish athlletic ability)
* Three good to very good indigenous forwards
* One of the best midfields in the business
* Two of the most mobile young ruckmen in the competition, plus one who has the most amazing leap


Then he has failed.

It's not like we dont have any options. We dont have many proven options whove performed at this level as a group, but we have many options. if the challenge is kjicking 15 goals a game and we cant manage it, then for sure Ratten will have failed in 2010.

I dont think we will make finals, i just dont think we will kick enough goals especially with our bomb it in and hope for the best kicks into our forward line.
Fev is a massive loss, he is a clown off the field but NO ONE can deny his on field ability, he is a superstar! You just dont replace 80 goals easily

Fisher ( cant kick past 30 mtrs and cant keep his feet )
Waite ( coming back from injury, he is really our only hope, a gun but will probably have to play back )
Kruzer ( will be a star, too early to expect him to carry the load )
Henderson ( havent seen enough of him to comment, hoping he is a good player )
Betts, Yarran and Gartlett ( too inconsistent to rely on )

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Matty Kruzer you star!

Watch this space hollywood.

I bet you're wrong.

You're being too simplistic regarding the loss of Fev and the ability of others.
We certainly wasted at least 125 forward 50 entries by going to Fev, and at times with that long bomb, knowing he was in the vicinity.

The flipside (school of thought) is that we had 150 better opportunities to kick for goal than going to Fev. Easy to dismiss that fact.

2nd most forward entries in the AFL with 540ish, with 380 going to Fev and what was his return: He's not that good if you look at it that way.

We will be better without Fev.
I never wanted Fev to go, but when he was finally traded, I weighed it all up and thought nothing of it other than we're in a better place without him (on and off field).

Time will tell.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

FINALS.

You can't have this much class and not make it.

If you think we are carrying deadwood try again to pick a best 22. It is hard this time for the first time in years. Plus throw in some improvement from some of the 'ants players, and it will get harder again. We will push hard this year, and next year we must expect to be beating this year's top 4. We are premiership smokies this year, and after we have had a chance to let our new forward setup gel this year, we will be a good bet for the flag starting next year.

By the way, Andrew Walker has given us very little yet. Just one more qualiy player who could come good this year.

We've got just as many top enders as St Kilda (at least we did till Fev left but that's hardly Ratten's fault)

Judd is the best midfielder of the last 25 years in my opinion so Judd> Hayes.

Riewoldt was a bit better than Fev but not that far in front.

we have kreuzer they have kosi (would rather have kreuzer and he'll surpass him this year)

They have goddard and dal santo.... we have gibbs and murphy..

Our stars can/will match their stars.

It's their lower tier players that make the difference between us.

yes fev left and instantly things improved off the field....

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dane's trolling again

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dane's trolling again

Great BUMP

He's already passed.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

I think it's just lucky that St Kilda don't rely on star players like we do or questions would need to be asked

+1

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I'm shocked to be sitting here

This is a much better question/thread than the "should we sack Ratten thread". I haven't been a fan of Rats but he's slowly bringing me around. And he deserves at least until the end of the year to show us what he's made of.

So for me its making the finals this year. Which is not yet guaranteed. Even with losing Fev we have enough talent for us to make it this year.

Beyond that next year top four.. and then a premiership very soon after will be a pass mark. At the end of the day we are Carlton and the only long term pass for Ratts will be a premiership.

For me finals is a pass (C), but winning a final is a B, winning 2 finals a B+, top 4 A-, Grand Final A, and Flag would be a A++.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

We need to progress, so at least a home final (ie finishing 6th up on the ladder) and/or 1 win in the finals . . . . we r the third best team in the comp atm (on form) given that our next 4 games r extremely winnable i see no reason why we won't be 9-3 or 8/4 i think we can 16 games from here, we r still to play;
hawthorn, west coast (melbourne), roos, dees, brisbane (melbourne), ess (again), richmond (again)

obviously we wont win all 7, but if we win 6, thats 11 wins and 8th spot booked(maybe) let alone the quality teams we r capable of beating, we r not far away from top 4 at all.

Beating last year's grand finalists....

When I posted this thread I was firmly on the fence with Ratts, after the Essendon* game I wanted him gone so badly I could see the vapour trail he was going to leave. I think it is fair to say that that performance justified my views.

Well I am sorry Ratts and in the end that is why we are here voicing our opinions (however right or wrong they maybe) and he is in the trenches.

I would like to think that the Essendon* loss was the making of Ratts. That after the game he put the fear of God into the boys (he certainly made some tough calls) and everything that we are seeing today is the result. Who knows?

All I know is he seems to be more confident in the box, is pulling out decent moves during the game, we are seeing a gameplan, tempo footy seems to also be working, kick ins are not the disgrace they once were and (and this is what really pleases me) we had a pretty rubbish game against Port where nothing was really firing and they were playing above themselves, yet we won. Have seen the replay a couple of times and am still trying to figure out how?

The boys are playing with real heart and enjoying thier football and the self belief that is Carlton is back.

I am not 100% won over but the last 5 weeks (even the collingwood loss) has made me totally reasses Ratts. For the first time I can see a no. 17 with him at the helm.

He has taken our weaknesses and turned them into strengths, his backing of players is bearing fruit etc etc ... not going to get carried away here but should this continue all us doubters could one day be really applauding him just as much as for being a coach as a player. Big call I know but the early signs are rearing its head.

Time will tell. I know one thing .. he would have to be a supreme donought not to get a pass from here for the year

still way to early to call on rats.

i have neither advocated he be sacked or praised until the end of the season.

we are playing decent footy, and we have a chance over the next month to really cement our chances of playing finals this year, but it is only at year ends can we really comment on if ratts is the man to take us to the next premiership.

at the moment, he, as with our side, seems to be improving from week to week. our performances both on the field and in the coaches box are getting better and better and that is all you can ask, but we havent even gotten to the half way mark.

we are going alright at the minute, and are 5-3, but would everyone be as happy if we are 6-6 at the half way mark? At the start of the season, to get to 6-6 there wouldnt have been too many that wouldnt have been happy with it considering the start to the season we had. to be 5-3 is better than hoped, however, 5-3 is only to round 8.

there is still a long way to go before declaring both him, and our season, a success.

at the start of the season i thought making the eight and taking a step further (second week of finals) was the goal. i still stand by that. if he achieves that, he and the side are showing constant and physical improvement. i dont know what more you or anyone would want, but we will only know this at seasons end.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod