I think Warnock will develop as a useful second ruck. Clearly Big K is a star ruck. At this point I like Warnock's competitive spirit but am disappointed in the talent he has shown. Just looking at the replay of the second qtr there is a ten minute period from mid qtr where he contested about 8 ball ups/ throw ins ag Maric (who is no star), and was clearly beaten in 6 of them, another they both missed, warnock one another decisively and put it down the throat of a Crows player. As I say I think he will be serviceable, but for two draft picks, when you already have a developing star and 2 other candidates for 2nd ruck, then we paid over the odds.

I don't get the Justin Madden references. Madden was a figure of derision when he first played at the Blues because he was played out of position as a forward and he was hopeless, but as a knock ruckman he had already been very good at the Dons. In fact he kept his bro out of favour at one stage. I think the last game I saw at Windy Hill was 1982 Anzac day when there were about a zillion people crammed into the rathole and J Madden flogged Wow Jones, just dominated every hitout. That's what I expected from Warnock. Warnock was 23 going into this season. Madden was 23 at the start of the 1985 season and came runner up in the Brownlow. Also his 206cm was a bit more of an advantage. Fitzy for instance was 191cm.

As I say Warnock may be a handy second ruck, but with limited lists if you have 3 capable second rucks and one super first rucks, there will be other areas not covered. When Hammo is fit he would be the priority I think as he has massive athleticism. So are 2 draft choices reasonable for a back up ruckman

Bear in mind warnocks only played 24 games
When your injured for 1.5 years of football, you don't improve in 1.5 years of sitting on the sidelines.

Give him time.

And his Tap work has been good from what l have seen. He gets his hands on the ball and usually gets it close to a team mate. In practise games l saw him tap it directly to Judd 3 times and one time judd came bursting out of the pack with the ball. Best thing l have seen in years.

Don't worry marking will improve, its just confidence. It will come.

You play Warnock ahead of Jacobs because the upside is just SOOOOOOOO much bigger.

If Warnock turns his natural advantages into actual advantages we have a star on our hands. He's mobile, he can kick and he's 200 and friggin 6 cm!

Stamina and confidence appear to be the two main things he's missing at the moment (for good reason) and they can be found. Mobility, kicking skill and height are a bit trickier.

Jacobs is handy support but I don't see him ever leading our ruck division.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

You can not compare Madden with Matty Allan, Stephen King or Darren Jolly IMO two different types of ruckmen.

Different types of ruckmen - power or tap.

You now have a new breed of ruckmen in Nitnat and Kreuzer which has bent the dynamics of the game out of shape.

Warnock needs to have at least 50% of the ability of Dean Cox to make it worth our while [premiership ruckman]and at this point he is showing perhaps 10% of Dean Cox's ability and at this point he is wasting our time.

Not insinuating he will not improve but at 50% of Cox's ability I seriously doubt it.

I guess it's wait and see with Warnock. I don't think he, Hammo or Jacobs will need to lead our rucks unless Big K is injured. I can't really see a massive upside with him. I think he will improve but not drastically. His height advantage is way over rated. He has 6cm on our other rucks and appears to have little or no leap, and he doesn't look like he has much idea how to take an overhead mark. He is pretty mobile, and mobility will be the hallmark of rucks in the increasingly athletic game. I just can't see him being anything other than serviceable and i will be disappointed if Hammo is forsaken for him. When fit Hammo is the guy that needs extended time in the ones as he has the athletic attributes to be a real star and not just a battling back up. At some point over the next season or two we will need to make decisions as each of Hammo/Jacobs/Warnock will want to be playing senior footy and will likely get options elsewhere if not with us. The trade value ag cost is highest for jacobs - we got him via rookie draft. Trading the other two is unlikely to be in our favour given what we gave up for them. Whoever we trade will be the guy not getting a game which would effect their currency. Anyway we will wait and see, but I'd be happier if Jacobs was currently second ruck and we had used the two draft picks on a few developing youngsters. I think Nick Suban was one of the guys the Dockers picked up.

I am biased ag trades tho as I am always against trading picks for players unless the players name is C Judd. This probably comes from Carlton's dismal drafting, trading history over the 90s.

Obviously Warnock should be persisted with over Jacobs, as Warnock has the much better ability to dominate the ruck contests due to his height, and more importantly Jacobs can barely kick where-as Warnock is a beautiful kick.

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#23: Lachlan Henderson

At just 23 and 21 games you don't think there is any room for improvement The Leagues best ruckman don't come into their own until they are 26yrs+ and 100games+. Give the kid a break. Judge him on the rest not on freaks like Special K. How about we wait to see if he can strick 12-15 games together before the nails come out in the coffin.

Matthew Leuenberger went at pick 4 and he is struggling to get his body and his game right after 4 years.

And Blue4 here is one mans thoughts on Dean Cox lifted from Wikipedia.

Early career

The Eagles then put him on their senior list and he made his AFL debut in 2001. Initially he showed few signs of his potential at that level. However, he was persisted with.

He came of age during the 2005 season, where he became a dominant player for the Eagles and is now considered one of their best.

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly supporters want to denigrate players who are only just starting their careers.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

You seem to forget he was 23y.o in 2005.

I don't think anyone is really denigrating him Caz. I said I think he will improve but not drastically. Of course he will have higher expectations than Dean Cox when he started. Cox was a 4th round rookie, and he was a late developer obviously. Warnock has been given a 4 year deal reportedly, presumably on pretty good money and we gave up a couple of draft picks for him. That is big expectation. When Hammo is fit I can't see a spot for he and Warnock given that Big K is a star. It's not that I don't think Warnock will be okay, it's more that I am surprised we went so hard after him when we had Jacobs and Hammo on the list. Can all three remain on the list? It is not feasible to keep two of them in the Ants in case the other two are injured, anymore than having two capable midfielders in reserve in case several midfielders go down. There are only really three types of players in the Ants. Senior players coming back form injury, senior players in their last year and developing youngsters. jacobs will get a better offer if he doesn't get a go this year, and when Hammo is fit then whoever is not selected out of he and Warnock will be chased by another club.

I would have rathered pick up a Nick Suban who played almost every game last season and gives something we don't have enough of - excellent disposal - rather than trade two picks for a third second ruck option.

Gerry has it at correct weight.

How right you are.

And in the 4 yrs leading up to his breakout year in 2005 he had played a total of 78 AFL games including all 23 games in 2004. So by the time he got to the end of 2005 he had played another 25 to take him over the 100 mark.

He was able to string together in 19 games 2003 and 19 in 2002.

At the start of 2005 he had 5 full preseasons under his belt.

Are we really comparing apples with apples? I'd say probably not.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

When we acquired Warnock, we had no one demanding the starting job. The progress of our other ruckmen has been nothing short of fantastic.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Lets look at the facts.

In 2008 when we drafted Warnock we gave up 24, 56 & 72.

Basically we gave up 24 for Warnock. At 56 we would have taken O'Keefe but we still got him at 65. Likewise Tiller at 72 but we got him at 80.

At the end of 2008 Hampson was just 20yrs and had played 12 games. Jacobs was 19yrs and had played no games. Special K was not going to carry the ruck on his own and nor should he have been expected to. We were trying to use non-ruckmen in Setanta and Cloke to fill the gap which was obviously not working. We needed someone to support Big K and feed Murphy, Gibbs and Juddy.

So we got a 206cm lad who was just 21-22yrs with athletic ability. He also kicks the ball well and had been in the system a few years. Sadly his 2009 season was curtailed by a stress fracture in his foot. Such is life.

If you are struggling to see the Clubs thought process then here it is in black and white. I loved Suban as well but you can't get everyone you want. There are more Subans in each draft than there are 21yr old, 206cm athletic ruckmen. If we end up with 4 sort-after ruckman then that can't be a bad thing. We haven't had player currency in many, many years.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

I'd say we are comparing apples with apples. One was a rookie listed player the other came with all the bells and whistles.

This is all very interesting but until Warnock earns his spot should he be playing senior footy? At the moment Jacobs appears to be the better ruckman and until Warnock can show he has developed why not give Jacobs a go? Are we actually going to lose anything by swapping the two. Instead we will probably gain by bringing in the better ruckman.

I am not saying it will be for the long term but until Warnock can show he has earned his spot in the team. I for one am tired of him palming it to the opposition.

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"Get ready, Teddy - you're on": Ron Barassi half time 1970 Grand Final

I agree about Jacobs as well but having said that Warnock has missed 2 years of football, if not more .
Give him time ... if only we could play Kruezer at CHF and Warnock/Jacobs in the ruck.

Delist.

And then bring back Barnaby French.

Jacobs will be lucky if he ends up as good as Frenchy.

Brisbane managed to have Keating, McDonald and Charman on their list, so I don't why people think we can't carry three mobile big man.

West Coast had to play Lynch in the ruck last year with Cox injured and Naitanui developing, so we will need depth in the ruck.

One will always be injured.

I'd rather lose Jacobs if push came to shove.

Sauce cost us nothing.

I dislike Suban...He goes down like he's shot if he cops a fend off or rolls an ankle.

How does 78 games compare to 21? How does 5 preseasons compare to virtually none because of injury. How does playing almost every game in the 3 seasons leading up to 2005 compare to Warnocks interupted career.

So what if one was a rookie and the other initially pick 42. It is what they have been through after being listed that is the fact of the matter. What exactly were the bells and whistles Warnock came with. He was 206cm and athletic. Anything else?

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

You're not the first person to do this, and you won't be the last, but you're completely missing the point. Players are not a bunch of attribute sheets that you just drop into a match and they work first time, every time. There are factors involved, they have been clearly explained to you, so rebutting with a nonsense cliché doesn't cut the mustard (hah).

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

A rookie listed player that has played in a hand full of games compared to an AFL drafted player that has played in a handful of games and they are not comparable?

Sure thing buddy.

Not saying he is a dud....but he is nothing compared to Dean Cox.. PERIOD.