Not overly impressed so far but I realise he's had a very long layoff and that he is a long term prospect.
I am happy to assess him properly in a year or two, not now.

That being said, I believe Hampson last year was showing more than Warnock this year, IMO of course

_________________

Cox and Hille were a joke when they started, ruckmen need extra time unless their name is Naitanui.

_________________
"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Justin Madden and Matthew Allan were both 24 when they had their break out seasons. I reckon if you chartered most All-Australian calibre players you'd find a similar upswing at that age.

Warnock is 23 now, but with 2 seasons of little footy you'd expect it to happen over the next couple of years.

_________________
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Not impressed one iota.

Agree that he needs time, but is taking valuable match time off Jacobs.

He is a ruckman in the Madden/Everitt/Gardiner mould rather than Jolly/Otten/Primus mould.

We'll see what happens....been in the system for a long time.

or Kreuzer?

_________________

Oh saviour jacobs

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Jacobs showed more in his first few games last season than 206 has showed thus far considering there is a 4 year gap. Jacobs could be ahead. Hammer likely to leave at end of next year for the big bucks at gold coast...Oh jacobs the saviour indeed.

What is this four year gap you speak of ?

Hammer set to leave?

We may or may not have overpaid, time will tell. The question is, was this the right trade for Carlton in terms of our list? In retrospect probably not - but I was surprised the extent to which Jacobs and Hammer came on in 2009, so in many ways I can't really knock the trade, because at the end of 2008 we had a young kid carrying our ruck division.

Exactly.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

At the time we all felt that Matthew Kreuzer was a little small and light to be our number one ruck long term, and would be better value as a number two who could rotate into the forward line and kick bags of goals. Many of us thought he would be a star CHF. This has turned out to be wrong. Kreuzer is an OUTSTANDING ruck and onballer, competes exceptionally well with even the biggest of opponents, dominates hit outs and has that value add of being wonderful below his knees, on the bottom of packs, and following up his own ball and running on through the midfield. He has truly great football smarts and a lion heart. No doubt an absolute gun for the next 10 years.

As others have said, Jacobs and Hampson came on better than expected in 2009, and the decision re Warnock at the time made a lot of sense.

Warnock at 206 not only needs to be a dominant tap ruckman (which he is not just yet) but needs to take contested grabs. I think he should experiment with gloves, one to start, then maybe two. (I have often thought Sandilands should do the same). What he would lose around feel for the ball he should gain in grip at marking contests in pack situations. He loses his imposing height advantage because he cant leap, but if he had a more solid grab it could make a big difference. Bring on the baseball mitts!

Sandilands was elevated from the rookie list in 2002 but only really started to perform in 2005 after 4 years of pre-seasons strength work and skills. In 2005 he spent an average of 80 minutes on the ground with 4 kicks 5 handpasses and 23 hitouts per match. Over the next 4 years he doubled that output and the time he spent on the ground. At present Sandilands is close to the best ruck in the league and that has taken 7 years. I believe Warnock is at Sandilands 2005 level and it will take about 4 years before we start to see him perform at a high level consistently.

I don't think our Ratten is a natural coach of tall players---Kreuzer aside none of our big men have really developed in leaps and bounds. I get the sense that most of our training revolves around contested ball. Our big guys are great below their knees I question how much time they spend on contested marking, body postioning in a pack, leading etc etc.
Who on our coaching staff was a great key position player. This is not an implied criticism of Ratten more of an unbalanced coaching department
Teague?
Lappin?
Montgomery?
Riley?
Bradley?

(evidence suggests Capuano was a good ruck coach

I'm one of those who thinks he'll work out in the long run but it doesn't really matter. I watched Justin Madden embarass everyone with his lack of coordination and the constant references to him as "the crap Madden". Warnock's comfortably ahead of Madden at the same age.

Also, having watched us fill holes for years with part timers (Trent Hotton in the ruck FFS!) I'm more than happy for us to stockpile a few very good prospects. These guys have value beyond what they give us during game time. There's nothing wrong with having a list with four or five good ruck prospects on it (Primus, Lade, Brogan, French...). When you decide it's time to move one on or the one at the end of the pecking order decides to look for other opportunities you have a good chance of getting above the odds in a trade.

If Warnock doesn't work out with us there'll be another club or three willing to give him a go and willing to pay for that and considering the chances of keeping all four fit and available at all times are next to nothing (see Hawthorn) having that backup is well worth the spots on the list.

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

You are right but which one do you play? Head to head Jacobs is probably the better ruckman at the moment so why is Warnock getting the gametime before him?

_________________
"Get ready, Teddy - you're on": Ron Barassi half time 1970 Grand Final

Take a look at Allan's career and some of the themes of this thread are apparent:

* It took until 1997 (allan's 4th year of senior football) before he averaged over 10 possessions a game and before he began to make his mark (albeit in a weakening team)
* It took until 1998 - and then dramatically so in 1999-2000 - for him to dominate.

http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php? ... 3A+M+Allan

So years 5-6 at senior level, ignoring his tenor in the reserves.

From the Blueseum

_________________
Check out www.blueseum.org for all of your Carlton information needs.

Whereas the WCE will go to all lengths to fast track their ruckmen even if it means breaking rules to relay instructions via mobile phone during game time.

The WCE have worked damn hard (apparently) to turn Nik Nat into a more natural ruckman.
It has been said that Melb overlooked Nik Nat because they though he may take time to develop into (whatever they were thinking).

I'd like to hear from Gilly, Mojo and other watchers of up coming kids what they thought of Nik Nat before he was frafted. Was he really unco and unnatural? He didn't seem that way to me from youtube stuff, and WH even suggested that had Nik Nat and Kreuzer been available in the same draft he may have gone for NikNat.

Personally, I think Warnock needs a few more preseasons under his belt to develop core strength and strength all round; Hammer is learning and growing, and he needs a couple more presaesons under his belt; Jacobs has come on in leaps and bounds after the 2 previous preseason campaigns, and has more improvement left; and despite Kreuzer being elite, he's still only 21yo and needs a couple more preseasons of experience and strength conditioning.

These things take time. Some expectations of our ruckmen are going to end up in disappointment because they are unrealistic.
Beyong 2012 is when I guess our rucks will hold their own, or we may be surprised with an exponential improvement after the next preseason.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I'm from the same school of thought.

Ruckmen are very important for the fabric of the team, and it's not till you are in a position without ruckmen (Ackland, Cloke, McLean, Hotton, and even French) that you realise how important they are.

Minimum 4 ruckmen for me, with the 4th and even the 5th developing

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

probably sums that up for a start.

I think warnock is the better ruckman - so what, its an opinion.

I think warnock gives us more flexibility than Jacobs

I think warnock is a different potential to Kruiser which is what you want.

I think jacobs is on some sort of pedestal and I am not sure why. I like Sammy, am happy for him to get a game when Kruise or Warnock goes down, but in the long run I think Warnock will give Kruise a run for his money as the No1 ruckman, I do not think Sammy ever will.

Hammer is injured so its just dumb to want him to play ahead of Warnock. Lets get him on the park first.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Hampson, Jacobs, Setanta & Bower have also come along during Ratten's time at the club, and he doesn't appear to have hindered Waite, Thornton & Henderson.

On top of that we're seeing good progress already from White, Casboult, Donaldson, Davies & Dare. I think I've just about covered all of our talls, so that puts a nail in that theory.

Warnock is playing his first AFL matches in 2 years. I personally think he needs to work his fitness base up more, but I'm not sure if that should be in the VFL or the AFL. The conditioning staff would know better. What I do know is that Warnock is capable of leading our ruck division in time, so time he shall get.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.