Well I'm not Rafa, but as far as I know, those are counted. Behinds count as ineffective though, so you'll see forwards having some terrible numbers.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Thornton's form has been ordinary this year, but he would have limited value on the trade table now. He is not young anymore. He would be best instructed to simply mind his opponent and only peel off when necessary (if he's not already).

Houlihan is not a star and never will be. Destined to be the occasional talent tease. In fairness to him, his last 2-3 years have been greatly improved in terms of consistency and application. His years under Pagan (like many others) were wasted.

Tex is the ultimate gap filler. He would benefit from a more permanent role and I was surprised at the match up on Gumbleton on the weekend. That said, he was far from our worst. His disposal "issues" are overstated. He has the odd shocker, but he is also very capable of the lace out bullet. I would be disappointed if we traded out AW as see his best value as a leading/defensive half forward with the odd run on the ball.

A lot of these threads used to be about Russell. His last 15-20 games of footy have been terrific. I'm confident that he has "arrived" and will be a very good 150-200 game player. Walker has missed the best part of two years. He will grow and mature with every game he gets this year - as will Waite who has arguably come back sooner than anticipated.

I think Thornton has a definite role for us. I just remember his efforts on brown in the 4th quarter of the final last year.

Clearly he's not our 1st or 2nd defender. He and Bower are very good floating defenders. he should remain a member of the list post 2010, no doubt in my mind.

Walker - as I stated elsewhere - we should be asking teams to mark him, not the other way around. His head and skill set clearly isn't in that space. Let's not square peg-round hole this bloke. Ask the question of the opposition - stop him. he's a dynamic player - I don't understand the fascination with limiting his impact, which seems to be the chief aim of the coaching direction with him.

Houlihan I can take or leave - but considering the general skill level in the team i would be wary of taking out a bloke who can use it, regardless of how you may feel about the way he goes about it.

Thornton is a good, experienced player. Some suggesting dropping him for White has me bedazzled.

What I'd like to see is Waite, Bower, Jamison and Thornton in the team together for a prolonged period. We would be a better team for it, the problem being one of the four always seem to be out injured.

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"I had to eat"

I like Tractor's post too.

I believe in the list and the 3 players debated are all in my first 22.
Should play them in their best position.
I know....team balance.
But for 'team balance' we sacrifice an individuals' best offer.

We are a good team...and we all expect them to be a top 4 team about now.
Expectations a bit high for now?

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Contrary to the whole universe I was really pleased that Walker was given a role and was forced to stick to it all game. These comments about X-factor and offensive weapon are to me just fluff; he is an x-factor because you never quite know what he will do with the ball.

The only time in his career he has looked like a top AFL player IMHO was on the back flank in 2006 when he not only stopped opposition forwards but provided that dash from defence.

On his player thread Ive been advocating sticking him back there until he gets the tempo back. Playing him forward is a waste as they are bery hard spots in any case.

I had Walker in my best on the weekend as Gumbleton did nothing.

He is in the best 22 for sure but only in certain roles (as with any other player except the greats)

Houlihan. Fair dinkum. Shouldn't have his name on the locker.
Thornton. Meh. Has the experience to slide back into the zone to take a good mark but not the judgement to think: it' s probably not the best example to all these kids if I cry like an eight-year-old every time I'm beaten in a one-on-one. Not to mention the message that sends to the opposition. Will be surprised if he's a premiership player at Carlton.
Walker should be a premiership player at Carlton. Agree the forward line could be his go. As could the wing or half-back flank. Arguably his flexibility could become a strength. He just needs to believe, and we just need to be a bit patient: he's missed that much footy, he'll find his groove soon enough.

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Dut, de dut, de daaa!

I wished I shared your optimism about even suggesting premierships re- Carlton. I have been watching other teams a lot more this year/ and less Carlton matches as a result, and on what we have served up so far/and what I have seen of other teams- we are a long way off.



Regarding Walker - all our number 1 draft picks have won numerous Brownlow votes, won the best first year player, placed in the top 5 in club voting, Walker hasn't yet achieved any of these feats (number 2 pick). Adrian Deluca won the best first year player in Walks first year.



Walker is a gifted athlete, and I hope he can become a great Carlton player, but I have my doubts. It is a tough business in the toughest football comp. in the world, yet I would at the least hope for a bigger output this year. He should have high expectations on himself, as he has been given a dream run and many opportunities, a bit like Houlihan in that way.



When we look back I think we will consider the 2003 draft wasn't that strong a year for picks. Other than Cooney and a couple of others few have kicked on to great heights.

Thornton and Walker exposed in today's article re turnovers in 2010

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

Walker is the only one of the two who needs a bath. His kicking efficiency was below 40% last week, all because he couldn't be bothered picking out a decent target.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

I reckon a major reason for this thread is that the coach will not take risks with the players and experiment. As a result the team and gameplan are too predictable. Therefore we all know the abilities of these three in the positions they currently play.

Move them (particularly Walker and Thornton) for a couple of games. Experiment. With the start to the season we have had, the team can't actually travel much worse, can it? After all, does it matter when we are already losing to see if the players in question can play in other positions at the highest level before you give up on them.

Going off the topic a little, if the bloody gameplan which is killing our so called elite midfield could be changed to go down the corridor it would suit a fast leading forward with good hands like Walker (and Betts and Yarran) down to the ground. Has anyone thought of that? Yes I also love Ratts but am getting fed up.

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"Get ready, Teddy - you're on": Ron Barassi half time 1970 Grand Final

how is the gameplan killing our elite midfield?

@#$%&! up our clearances? - um no

ruining our contested ball? um no

just what is it doing that is killing them?

I would have thought the thing most killing our midfield is the way our said midfield - and other players - are kicking the @#$%&! ball.

At a stab I'd say that's not in the gameplan.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

The Champion Data website use to list the criteria for efficient disposal. I can't remember it word for word, but typically the longer kicks to contests are deemed efficient, but short kicks to contests are not etc etc.

The other site to look at is ProStats who under each game have a review link that displays the stats for that round. Unfortunately unless you pay a small amount of cash you're limited in the stats you can see, although the FREE review is a good read. Last weeks game link http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/gam ... id=2010021 then click on Report.

Well I half picked the Thornton relegation then

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

I thought the news was... a Pratt to return as President.

Pratt of the female variety that is:

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************************************************************
NOW YOU'RE JUST SOME CLUB THAT I USED TO KNOW.

*self-administered snip*

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Another TCr content with mediocore footballers in the side .All 3 should have been shipped off at end of last season ,especially Thornton who tried to jump a few seasons ago ...were fast becoming the new Richmond

I dont think that comment is needed jimmae...

Fair enough, but she's the one who got the face lifts...

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.