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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:34 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:42 pm
Posts: 2833
25 was always special wrote:
I think anyone who isnt more confident about 2010 after that game should get on Ebay
and look up Jousting Sticks !!


I agree 25, although we lost this battle and I was as pi$$ed as any other carlton supporter, I took a lot of heart from this game.


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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:35 am 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:59 am
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Location: Melbourne
Memo to Voss: Relying on a proven champion to drag your team over the line against an up&coming but depleted side @ home does not a premiership coach maketh......... :wink: Good luck with your recruiting masterstrokes........ :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:42 am 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:00 am
Posts: 8229
Location: canberra
25 was always special wrote:
Cons

We lost a winnable game.
Some of the dribble and lunacy being written about this game.

Pros

This was to me a very very illuminating game as to where CFC is right now.
You can win every bloody KPI under the sun, but unless you can put the pill
through those big sticks, its all navel fluff !!
As to some of the individual performances, personally (like most here im guessing)
i only watched it on tv, but cant believe some of the negative crap being offered up.

The 2 best CHB's ive ever seen are Peter Knights and Bruce Doull.
J. Brown would have had them both for breakfast in that form.
One out and with no help for Thornton, it was always going to happen.
Yarran didnt have a great game scoreboard wise, but he showed other facets
that will serve him wonderfully well ovr the ensuing years, he will be a player.
Cant believe the vitriol being heaped on Anderson.
Sure he stuffed a few up, but he is raw and if you cant see the potential
there then you are, simply, unreallistic.
Murphy was electric, Irish and Henderson showed plenty, Kreuzer was special K
all right, Mclean showed why we recruited him and kudos to Ratts for the Simpson spark.

Bottom line, can you remember many teams being 3.11 at half time and winning ?
The difference being the delivery (and space) provided by Black, Johnstone, Rich (only in
the last Q) and Drummond. Perfect example in the last Q when Drummond hit up
Banfield (i think) with a pinpoint round the body 50 metre pass.
Our blokes can do that too, but hey, we are rejigging our forward line, its not going
to be precision at round 2 after having a one man forward line for years.

I think anyone who isnt more confident about 2010 after that game should get on Ebay
and look up Jousting Sticks !!

Oh, and you smug prick Vossy, cant wait for the rematch down here.
If you think blokes like Maguire will get you there, then you already have a full set
of frickin Jousting Sticks.

PS........ please, oh please, for the sake of this forum.... JUST WIN NEXT WEEK !!!


Well said 25WAS.

Carlton was never going to win this game on rebounds out of defence. Simple as that. Brown and Fevola are too potent for that to happen

If it was going to win it had to win the centre and it did. Brock was brilliant. So was Kreuse and Murph.

It was lost because of poor conversion. Nothing more, nothing less.

You can't blame Anderson - and the vitriol being heaped on him is plain bloody dumb

You can't blame Ratts

And, sadly, you can't even blame the umpires

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Last edited by stubba on Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:51 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Posts: 10595
I know a lot of people aren't going to like this but Voss has continously bent us over ever since taking over Brisbane. He can gloat because plain and simple he can afford too right now. He has made every post a winner against us and it pains me to say.
His trading this year was plain genius. He loaded up on bigger bodied recruites at a time where a lot of clubs over the next few years will go down this path. In other words he has beaten teams to the punch. This also allows his youngster, in which he has a few, time to build and grow over the next 2-3 years before they are ready to step up and by then he can start topping up again. Have a look at the Brisbane list and you will see what I am saying. The guy is very footy smart and a very, very good coach.


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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:26 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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PD'sPC wrote:
Memo to Voss: Relying on a proven champion to drag your team over the line against an up&coming but depleted side @ home does not a premiership coach maketh......... :wink: Good luck with your recruiting masterstrokes........ :roll:


Haveing 2 of them doesn't hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:36 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Posts: 23924
SurreyBlue wrote:
I know a lot of people aren't going to like this but Voss has continously bent us over ever since taking over Brisbane. He can gloat because plain and simple he can afford too right now. He has made every post a winner against us and it pains me to say.
His trading this year was plain genius. He loaded up on bigger bodied recruites at a time where a lot of clubs over the next few years will go down this path. In other words he has beaten teams to the punch. This also allows his youngster, in which he has a few, time to build and grow over the next 2-3 years before they are ready to step up and by then he can start topping up again. Have a look at the Brisbane list and you will see what I am saying. The guy is very footy smart and a very, very good coach.


Look Vossy,
you're just embarrassing yourself posting here. :smile:

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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:41 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 11:58 pm
Posts: 4058
Location: South Yarra
SurreyBlue wrote:
I know a lot of people aren't going to like this but Voss has continously bent us over ever since taking over Brisbane. He can gloat because plain and simple he can afford too right now. He has made every post a winner against us and it pains me to say.
His trading this year was plain genius. He loaded up on bigger bodied recruites at a time where a lot of clubs over the next few years will go down this path. In other words he has beaten teams to the punch. This also allows his youngster, in which he has a few, time to build and grow over the next 2-3 years before they are ready to step up and by then he can start topping up again. Have a look at the Brisbane list and you will see what I am saying. The guy is very footy smart and a very, very good coach.


What are you talking about? :screwy:


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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:41 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:28 pm
Posts: 4947
SurreyBlue wrote:
His trading this year was plain genius


I thought his trading was "Laidley-esque"

Fevola won't win them a flag - their midfield isn't good enough and Black/Power are nearing the end.

Henderson is a 10 year KPP and Lucas (pick #12) by all reports looks promising.

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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:47 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Posts: 17893
SurreyBlue wrote:
I know a lot of people aren't going to like this but Voss has continously bent us over ever since taking over Brisbane.


It's now 2 wins all for he and Ratten. Both of those wins have been when Carlton was in front at 3/4 time.
It's not that people don't like it.
It's just a load of crap.

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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:16 am 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9105
Location: Nth Fitzroy
keogh wrote:
turn overs killed us . Agree with that but we needed Brown to be double teamed at all times
That didnt happen and that is dumb footy.

Bottom line Brown was the difference. Turn overs didnt help but Thornon didnt get much help from his teammates

White would have been more likely to leave his man to help as well than Armfield.

Brown is an intimidating footballer.

Brown would have killed any footballer Thursday night.
Thornton needed more assistance and didnt get it


I think its the calling things DUMB is what gets me about your posts. Like you know better than 4 coaches. I am sure the knew thornton couldnt stop Brown alone. They would have loved to get a player to peel off and help him and that were the instructions. Anderson was in the packs many times. Sometimes Brown beat them all. Other times the ball was turned over by us and there was no chance of getting a player to the Brown contest to assist.

You suggested putting Warnoch in front of him. Now in my opinion that is DUMB. Dropping a man back behind the ball like that frees up one of theirs to do damage. Up until 3qtr time we had them. Brown had 4 but Ratts backed his men. If Ratts had of went defensive at that stage and put a ruck in front of Brown and tagged Rich ( who hadnt had a kick to that stage) in fear this board would have went into meltdown. Massive melt down not just a Keogh calling our coaching Dumb or Juddy and the Kruezers pushing his anti ratts agenda.


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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:46 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6418
club29 wrote:
keogh wrote:
turn overs killed us . Agree with that but we needed Brown to be double teamed at all times
That didnt happen and that is dumb footy.

Bottom line Brown was the difference. Turn overs didnt help but Thornon didnt get much help from his teammates

White would have been more likely to leave his man to help as well than Armfield.

Brown is an intimidating footballer.

Brown would have killed any footballer Thursday night.
Thornton needed more assistance and didnt get it


I think its the calling things DUMB is what gets me about your posts. Like you know better than 4 coaches. I am sure the knew thornton couldnt stop Brown alone. They would have loved to get a player to peel off and help him and that were the instructions. Anderson was in the packs many times. Sometimes Brown beat them all. Other times the ball was turned over by us and there was no chance of getting a player to the Brown contest to assist.

You suggested putting Warnoch in front of him. Now in my opinion that is DUMB. Dropping a man back behind the ball like that frees up one of theirs to do damage. Up until 3qtr time we had them. Brown had 4 but Ratts backed his men. If Ratts had of went defensive at that stage and put a ruck in front of Brown and tagged Rich ( who hadnt had a kick to that stage) in fear this board would have went into meltdown. Massive melt down not just a Keogh calling our coaching Dumb or Juddy and the Kruezers pushing his anti ratts agenda.



Ratten gets some things right sometimes 29 like moving Simmo up forward to favour his left foot. That was brilliant coaching and was partially the reason we got back into the contest.
However Ratten IMO doesnt have a feel for the crucial elements of the game. The 2 keys to this game were Fev and Brown. Jamo had Fev cold every time unless it was delivered laces out. One goal from a dubious free one off the ground. It was pretty obvious that Brown was going to be the difference. Didnt help that we coughed it up and he kicked beautifully. but Thornton had no real help accept for Anderson as you have stated.
Cazzeman reckons that if Betts andYarran had kicked straight we may have won. True but what is the difference in saying if we doubled teamed Brown everytime it wouldnt have made the difference.
Warnock was useless around the ground. Why not put his 206cm frame to use rather than having runnin around like a lost giraffe. I dont reckon a loose Leunberger would have made much differnce to the result.
Not enough guys were prepared to take a hit for the team and help Thornton out.
Brown would have got a hard-on looking at all the space around him

As for Armfield being included instead of White well a 20kg difference plus the luxury of moving off Staker might have prevented a couple of Brown marks and goals.


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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:57 am 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25309
Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
club29 wrote:
keogh wrote:
turn overs killed us . Agree with that but we needed Brown to be double teamed at all times
That didnt happen and that is dumb footy.

Bottom line Brown was the difference. Turn overs didnt help but Thornon didnt get much help from his teammates

White would have been more likely to leave his man to help as well than Armfield.

Brown is an intimidating footballer.

Brown would have killed any footballer Thursday night.
Thornton needed more assistance and didnt get it


I think its the calling things DUMB is what gets me about your posts. Like you know better than 4 coaches. I am sure the knew thornton couldnt stop Brown alone. They would have loved to get a player to peel off and help him and that were the instructions. Anderson was in the packs many times. Sometimes Brown beat them all. Other times the ball was turned over by us and there was no chance of getting a player to the Brown contest to assist.

You suggested putting Warnoch in front of him. Now in my opinion that is DUMB. Dropping a man back behind the ball like that frees up one of theirs to do damage. Up until 3qtr time we had them. Brown had 4 but Ratts backed his men. If Ratts had of went defensive at that stage and put a ruck in front of Brown and tagged Rich ( who hadnt had a kick to that stage) in fear this board would have went into meltdown. Massive melt down not just a Keogh calling our coaching Dumb or Juddy and the Kruezers pushing his anti ratts agenda.



Ratten gets some things right sometimes 29 like moving Simmo up forward to favour his left foot. That was brilliant coaching and was partially the reason we got back into the contest.
However Ratten IMO doesnt have a feel for the crucial elements of the game. The 2 keys to this game were Fev and Brown. Jamo had Fev cold every time unless it was delivered laces out. One goal from a dubious free one off the ground. It was pretty obvious that Brown was going to be the difference. Didnt help that we coughed it up and he kicked beautifully. but Thornton had no real help accept for Anderson as you have stated.
Cazzeman reckons that if Betts andYarran had kicked straight we may have won. True but what is the difference in saying if we doubled teamed Brown everytime it wouldnt have made the difference.
Warnock was useless around the ground. Why not put his 206cm frame to use rather than having runnin around like a lost giraffe. I dont reckon a loose Leunberger would have made much differnce to the result.
Not enough guys were prepared to take a hit for the team and help Thornton out.
Brown would have got a hard-on looking at all the space around him

As for Armfield being included instead of White well a 20kg difference plus the luxury of moving off Staker might have prevented a couple of Brown marks and goals.


I'm telling you that Armfield's pace saved 4 certain goals in the first half. White wouldn't have had the closing speed of Armfield.

I don't disagree with double teaming Brown, as other teams did to Fev when he played with us, because it can work. I would have also preferred a player filing the hole, but I have to say, those turnovers left us so exposed that Brown had a whole 50m arc to lead in and the player filling the hole Brown was intending to lead in, wouldn't have a clue where to stand with that much space.

Dumb kicking at goal cost us as did turnovers from bad disposal.
Brown reaped the rewards from our players' turnovers.

And lets face it, Brown was kicking em outa his arse on Thursday night. Freak performance.
That had nothing to do with Vossy's coaching other than the fact Vossy pulls wins out of his arse on a regular basis.

I too am still gutted from the result, and I know we can't change that, but if there's anything I would like changed moving forward is not Ratts decision making, but the players' disposal by foot. It cost us!

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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:02 am 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9105
Location: Nth Fitzroy
Fair enough if that is what you believe. But that doesnt make it fact. I think if you are going to call things DUMB you should qualify it with "in my opinion" or " i would have done played White".

I reckon if we sat Warnoch in front of Brown the Bears would have taken LBerger off and let Clarke roam free behind the ball or brought on another runner.

I dont reckon Ratts would have been keen to change what was going on in the third. The mix was right. As 25 pointed out we were never going to win it rebounding off half back. We had to beat them in the middle and around the packs which we did. Unfortunately we missed easy goals (fact), we turned it over making it easy for them to score (fact) and Brown nailed some amazing goals (fact).


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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:12 pm
Posts: 4426
Virgin Blue wrote:
Waite wasted playing btw the arcs on Brennan.

Betts n Yarran did nothing.

Anderson and Thornton 2 errors/turnovers each in 1st half killed us. That is 2 weeks straight now Anderson has coughed up the ball and it's resulted in a goal

Warnock poor game IMO

The good thing is we won the midfield without CJ.

But as promising as Setanta and Hendo are, I really think Waite needs to play fwd. Poor decision by Ratten to not use Waite as a weapon.

And we still don't have a gorilla to match up on the Brown's of the comp


Some interesting points but you have to start doubting your ability as a team when you win the midfield as you say and then in 10 minutes of football we still manage to lose the game pretty comfortably...I reckon it had nothing to do with Brown in the last....it was the battle lost in the middle AGAIN (see last quarter last year against this same team on a number of occasions)...it was this that gave Brown so many opportunities

I agree with Keogh to a degree...we don't take enough risks....Ratts and co that is, especially when the tide turns against us....we just don't seem to have any method of halting or arresting back momentum when the game is there to be won...this is the biggest Con for me to come out of this week....I was looking forward to this game mostly to see how we would handle a predictable opponent...and unfortuanately we handled them with the same predictability... :confused:

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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:52 pm 
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Bruce Comben

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:31 pm
Posts: 27
It would be a sad state of affairs if our midfield was not winning when you look at our recruiting over the past 5 years it has been predominantly midfielders. What is required is a stronger backline and ironically Maguire was on the paddock for them when we had a chance to get him. How many times will JB kick a bag of goals on us before we realise this. Brett Thornton has been fighting outside his weight for far too long. We get one injury and there is no back up plan that will work!


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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:10 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 21075
Location: Missing Kouta
Didn't Ratten arrest control of the game back with his moves in the third quarter?

Brennan is a dangerous player who needs to be quelled by a Waite.

Waite isn't wasted there because he's been a matchwinner between the arcs on Richo in the past.

Brown was just too good.

Our half forwards and mids didn't push back hard enough and apply any forward pressure when the Lions had the ball.
kev1207 wrote:
It would be a sad state of affairs if our midfield was not winning when you look at our recruiting over the past 5 years it has been predominantly midfielders. What is required is a stronger backline and ironically Maguire was on the paddock for them when we had a chance to get him. How many times will JB kick a bag of goals on us before we realise this. Brett Thornton has been fighting outside his weight for far too long. We get one injury and there is no back up plan that will work!

How many did Henderson (still filling out because he's a 20 year old KPP) kick on Matt "The Answer" Maguire last night?

Brisbane must have known something that Carlton and the other 14 clubs didn't, because they overlooked Maguire for two untried players.

5 67 Jeromey Webberley Clarence Richmond
5 68 Pass Fremantle
5 69 Taylor Duryea Murray Bushrangers Hawthorn
5 70 Matthew Suckling (Promoted rookie) Hawthorn
5 71 Ben Nason Central District Richmond
5 72 Samuel Jacobs (Promoted rookie) Carlton
5 73 Jesse O'Brien North Adelaide Brisbane Lions
5 74 Brodie Martin (Promoted rookie) Adelaide
5 75 Josh Thomas Redland Collingwood
5 76 Shane Thorne Wanderers Western Bulldogs
5 77 Will Johnson Sandringham Dragons St Kilda
6 78 Pass Richmond
6 79 Greg Broughton (Promoted rookie) Fremantle
6 80 Cruize Garlett (Promoted rookie) North Melbourne
6 81 Pass Sydney
6 82 Daniel Stewart (Promoted rookie) Port Adelaide
6 83 Aaron Joseph (Promoted rookie) Carlton
6 84 Bryce Retzlaff Labrador Brisbane Lions
6 85 Simon Buckley Melbourne Collingwood
6 86 Liam Picken (Promoted rookie) Western Bulldogs
6 87 Zac Dawson (Promoted rookie) St Kilda
6 88 Wade Thompson (Promoted rookie) Port Adelaide
7 89 Robin Nahas (Promoted rookie) Richmond
7 90 Kristin Thornton (Promoted rookie) Sydney
7 91 Matt Maguire St Kilda Brisbane Lions

We wouldn't have planned for Bower and Austin to be injured. :beer:


Last edited by Kouta on Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:16 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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I think Keogh is right that we didnt cover Brown well at all; very few times was there a third man up. That being said I think his form surprised everyone last night and we may have been too Fev conscious; covering him instead. Some of Brown's goals were pretty special, and he really kept them in it in the third.

The other problem with a 2 key forward forward line for us is that we lost THornton's drive and his stats were pressured / way down in any case. This meant we didnt have a lot of drive from half back (Jamo doesnt too this).

As an aside I understood that Waite was a bit proppy during the week so perhaps this is why he wasnt risked against a bigger target?

ps Armfield is a ripper and his body on body contact has markedly improved year on year. He is getting this game, is in our best 22 for sure and had to come in when fit.


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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:19 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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At the end of the day Brown and Fevola kicked 10 goals between them and O'hAilpin and Henderson kicked seven between them and Brisbane won by three goals. Upon reflection, it was a really close game and if Brisbane are serious contenders in 2010, then we aren't that far behind them.


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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:20 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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molsey wrote:
Armfield is a ripper and his body on body contact has markedly improved year on year. He is getting this game, is in our best 22 for sure and had to come in when fit.

No better than his game on Matt Campbell last year. :thumbsup:

Army's body work and positioning to beat his man, yet not give away a free was brilliant.

Yet SOS gets a wrap for Dawson. :donk:


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 Post subject: Re: R2: Pros and Cons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:21 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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verbs wrote:
At the end of the day Brown and Fevola kicked 10 goals between them and O'hAilpin and Henderson kicked seven between them and Brisbane won by three goals. Upon reflection, it was a really close game and if Brisbane are serious contenders in 2010, then we aren't that far behind them.


But if our forward pockets had have kicked 4, we could have won. Brisbane will have games where those two dominate but they still lose because those two are so very very good. It's the full spread of forwards that we needed and didnt have.

Do you think Brisbane are serious contenders? I think they're like us - 6-9 material.


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