Sorry but I disagree.

Kreuz quite simply cannot take marks above the shoulders, on the lead. He can take them in stationary, often contested situations, which is great, but he just doesn't hold onto the tougher ones on a lead. I actually think he isn't strong enough yet to hold these grabs, but I also wonder if he is just not a great mark, full stop. Seems Ratts has realised this now, given his remarks after the Crows game.

And Hammer, while a good tap ruckman, doesn't have the nous to have a lot of impact around the ground. 206 and Kreuz in contrast can have impact around the ground, hence they are our 2 best rucks at the mo.

I think we are going to learn a lot about our list in the next 12-24 mths, and it may frighten some fans if the pognosis is not elite.

Are Jamo, Bower and T-Bird, with maybe Waite, good enough down back? At the mo we don't have a gun defender, a Scarlett or Rutten or Silvagni or Jakovich, or even a Lake. Can a Jamo become one?

An will any of Santy, Hendo, Waite, Levi etc become really good fwds? That is 60 gls a year.

And will Brock the Rock, and/or Hads be good enough and not be exposed too much for lack of pace? And will Scotland have longevity? Will Salks finally make the grade? If not, we might be asking too much of too few in midfield - Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, Simmo.

We have a good young list, but there is a long way to go.

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A good one in terms of injuries relatively minor apart from the Fish cf Melbourne and Hawthorn
A lot of game time into Warnock
Competitive in all pre-season games
Experimenting with forward line -lots of young players in the forward line yazz robinson hendo -hopefully basis of forward line going forward
A couple of games into waite and murphy
Backline essential components Jamison bower and thorton playing together unlike last year

My summary: (having watched only the swans game)

- go setanta
- hadley remains an important player for us
- austin is the xman - would have loved him to have been fit to play all praccy games, preferably as a HFF-er.

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Yeah these points are very well made FD.

I would also like to add that Betts has had a terrific preseason and Walker and Hoops are also fitter than previous injury riddled seasons.
There are many issues we still need to continue to address of course, but giving Yazz time on the HBF was a good move too I think.

Well our pre-season has certainly not raised expectations, I am not thinking instead of making the 8 we could finish as low as 12th/13th, as it just seems in every game we have been a disorganised rabble.

I think you're wrong VB.

Kreuzer can mark over his head and on the lead....you have to consider delivery before you judge marking ability.

For a bloke over 200cm, I think his commitment to the contest is mouth watering, then he's taken a leak out of Kreuzer's book with his 2nd and 3rd efforts. I think he has to be given a role and be developed in that role. ATM you can see the MC are trialling whatever they can. I just hope they don't screw up Hammer's development like they did with Setantas.

Every player with his physical attributes can be taught to play an important role for the team.

I'm not questioning our players' ability to learn, but I am questioning the ability of our develpment coaches and MC to develop players.

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Kreuzer is most valuable when he drifts forward...not when he actually starts there.

He'll often contest the centre bounce and push forward but for some reason won't be used. He will find space and the midfielder either doesn't have the vision or time to spot him all on his own.

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Gibbs should be played fwd of centre at every opportunity........he could be our match winner....dare i say it, ala James HIRD.

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I see you watching me watching you.

..agreed, i'd play him across half forward for the majority of games.. ..he can push into the midfield, and he's the perfect linkman cos with our young forwards the delivery they recieve is even more important..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Pfft, he has had fine enough delivery all pre-season, and hasn't been able to snaffle one mark above his shoulders (ball goes through his hands/fingers) playing as a fwd, and Ratten said post game last weekend that Kruez will be a ruckman, seems pretty straight fwd to me.

Sounds like you personally want him to be a fwd, when really he is not suited to that role, and is better suited to be a ruckman who can kick a few gls drifting fwd and causing mismatches.

Struggles to take marks as a fwd but has exceptional 2nd and 3rd efforts, which enable him to have an unique presence on-ball for a 200cm man.

To be honest, he is more a wingman than a fwd.

Look, he could develop as a fwd in a few years, if his strength improves and this helps him hold some marks, but right now it is wasteful playing him as a fwd the majority of the time bec he can't take a mark up fwd to save himself.

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What scares the piss out of me is that the complaints we're hearing about this pre-season are the same complaints from last year; kick outs, defending kickouts, general skill level and decision making. I think free passes have been handed out because 'we're young'. That stops this year. Ratts has now had two preseasons withthis bunch. Show me the money.

Something else that worries me.... I think if there were a ladder of skill and mental application, we wouldn't be finalists. So if what i am reading here is correct and we're going for some kind of Sydney-esque 'if we have it they don't' gameplan, I'm not sure that we're cut out to carry it through - considering our skill set and ability to brainfart at any given moment. Frankly I am terrified at the thought of Carrots, Armfield, Grigg, Hadley, Browne or Walker holding the ball at half back and trying to pin point a pass to a moving target.

A couple of other questions...

What's wrong with significantly investing in some serious Hammer time down forward? With marking contest rules the way they are, he's almost an impossible match up if he has room to move and decent delivery (ok, so it's a big if). We should spend some $$$ on setting up a 'pitching machine' for footballs, and stick him in front of it for six hours a day, every day. That's the sort of innovation this club needs. I think three big men in a team is ok, especially if one of those is Kreuzer.

If our forward line is - Hendo, Waite Setanta, Yarran, Betts... (and Hamemr!!) - these players are all quick movers, good in space, athletic and decent marks out in front. We should be moving heaven and earth trying to get the ball to them quickly where they can play to their strengths. I think we're in for a very long season kicking to that forward line if we're going to chip around unless the PERFECT opportunity to strike quickly presents. Our team is set up to be a fast moving, quick strike unit.

I REALLY like the look of our backline though.

I tend to agree Don. I was disappointed and a little surprised that Kreuz did not go better when played fwd in this pre-season, but I think he is the one with the potential to become a marquee forward - a Kernahan type - and perhaps we should persist for a while with him forward - especially given the other quality ruck options we have available.

It is unfortunate that we have several potential world-beaters who just seem to be missing one element or another that would make them great forwards. Hammer, Setanta and Kreuz ... as I said, of these, I think Kreuz is the most likely to become the complete package. That said, Setants has done enough to deserve his chance. In all the above I have assumed Waite and Hendo as the other tall forwards. Waite will be great wherever we play him and Hendo has all the tools and will become a very good player - and should be played.

VB ... I like your team but I think Grigg must go for Armfield (I think Joseph must play). I also think Hadley is important and ahead of McLean.

Edit .... (didn't have the team in front of me) I also think Robbo must get a spot at expense of either Carrazo, McLean or Houla.

No need to pfft me VB, we all have opinions, we have all witnessed different things are we may all be wrong.

I enjoy your passion. I enjoy your posts. I enjoy the threads you start. I enjoy your input in TC forum.

However, you are being a bit dogmatic with your responses, and given you're telling the story, you must be right in your mind, and I'm wrong. I understand that. But that's not right and I understand that.

I can only judge on what I've seen. I watched the Sydney game live and I read what those in TV land saw. The response to Kreuzer was similar to your position on him as a forward. I can tell you, he had not one good pass to him or to advantage on that night. Those that didn't make the distance were reported as him not judging the flight...bla bla bla...others where he was just doing nothiong was because the ball wasn't passing the HF line, hence the waste of talent as a forwad that night...not for the reasons you suggest...you get the drift.

Furthermore during the preseason he has been reported as the best mark overhead bar none, and from the one session I saw in Jan that holds true.

I have seen Kreuzer mark in the forwardline and kick goals and in one game he kicked 3 in the last to get us over the line...so all this stuff you say like "he has had fine enough delivery all pre-season, and hasn't been able to snaffle one mark above his shoulders (ball goes through his hands/fingers) playing as a fwd" is a bit of a nonsense.

If Kreuzer can run, then he can lead. If he can lead, that big frame of his is a hinderance for the backman's spoil. Have a look at how the successful leading CHF's become successful from playing a lead up game. I have no doubt that Kreuzer can do that too. I doubt there would be many who would doubt the probability of this happening.

Watch the Kreuzer mark overhead when the opportunity presents...and do enjoy it.
Watch the Kreuzer kick a lot of goals in 2010, and I hope you enjoy that.

We're all right, but then again we may all be wrong...we just have to wait and see.

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Great post Bondi!

Whilst I wouldnt mind seeing kreuzer upforward a bit I dont think we need him to play there full time. A large part of it will come down to structure - in betts/yarran/robinson/garlett - I think we have 4 dangerous smalls that all have the potential to bob up with multiple goals regularly (betts/garlett have done it before, yarran did it in under 18s and robinson this pre-season) - the question is whether or not ratten chooses to play all 4 of them at the same time. You would expect at least 3 to play with garlett being the only questionable one atm. Henderson/waite/setanta also offers something competitive - waite is a proven goal scorer though is coming back from injury, henderson+setanta are potential but will always give a contest. Imo, with the smalls we have atm (assuming its just yarran+betts+robinson), we only need 2 of waite/setanta/henderson to step up to have a potent forward line.

The question I ask you is do u think he shlould play primarily as a fwd now? I have seen every pre-season game this year, and he will struggle as a fwd full time in 2010. But, as I said earlier, he may be better suited to a fwd role in the future, but not right now.

Just bec he bagged 3 gls once or twice doesn't mean he can be a regular contributor as a fwd now. Your taking one instance, I'm taking a lot more than 1. And anyhow, in those games he kicked multiple gls he was thrown fwd during thr game, causing a mismatch of sorts. But when he starts there and stays there, at FF, he struggles.

Look I do respect opinions, but I think you're being a bit unrealistic. I think u want him to be a fwd, but if you have seen all pre-season game as I have, you would have no choice but to say he isn't ready for FF or CHF yet. The coach has come to that conclusion, so why don't you??

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Truly VB I don't care that much in looking for Kreuzer's negatives, because there really isn't any for a guy playing 200cm above sea level... but I'll give it a burl.

I didn't see him struggle against the Swans, but I did notice the team found it difficulty to get the ball past HF when Kreuzer was FF with Judd in a FP. I haven't noticed any judgement of Judd's non performance as a forward for the same reasons. Is Judd incapable of playing fwd too?

The point being, give Kreuzer a fair chance by giving him 'opportunities'...and by that I mean favourable ones, like Fev received, and Reiwoldt and Brown receive, and he will kick goals from marks. He can mark over his head. He's done it before. More than once.

Lets look at the percentages with a bit more care. Are you saying that Kreuzers 10 straight goals came from him as a ruckman? The answer is that they didn't. What percentage of time has Kreuzer spent forward for his 17 goals compared with his time as a ruck? What is the goal per minute count? There must be a count...after all he has kicked a few goals...and when he did prior to 2010 all the footy experts saw the conundrum as to where to play Kreuzer fwd or back.

You are saying he's not a fwd. I know Gerard Healy, he thinks Kreuzer is too valuable not to play fwd. I value Gerard's opinion.

Now I mention 3 goals he's kicked as an example. There's multiple goals to add to that for a kid who was 19 and 20yo which proves he has fwd ability. Tell me where I'm being unrealistic when you are the one whose focussed on the 3 goals and dismisses the rest?
C'mon, get real...it's Kreuzer we're talking about here....not Spalding or DeLuca....and I mean it...get real.

I'm saying he can play forward with success if we can get the ball to him. Sorry but I can't see why that's being unrealistic.
What was your position again? Kreuzer can't mark, can't play fwd, can't kick goals? Nah...I think you're wrong....and you position is a tad unrealistic given the empirical evidence his efforts have created.

Go Kreuzer.
Go Blues.
In Ratten and the current list I believe in.
They're just young, and the supporters are a bit impatient.

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It takes a few years to train up a good forward. Kruezer would be a gun forward if he was given 2 or three years to learn the position. The question is do we train him up or just leave him as a gun follower who can do an ok job for us forward on occasion. I will leave that answer to the coaches. Get it inside 50 50 times a game and score 12 times or get it in 40 and score 15. So many questions.

I think our pre season has been fine. When we turn up the intensity and tackles we will look a whole lot better. Its up to the team to be able to tighten the screws on a consistant basis and Ratts to makes sure we are set up in a way that makes it easier to tighten the screws.

Hope we dont go too tall. 2 or 3 tall backs , 2 tall forwards, two ruckman and a Waite is all thats required.

Right on Punter Its a worry that Ratts is talking about chipping the ball around even more than last year.

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Look, he did kick some gls in his first 2 yrs, and at the time I thought he would/could be a fwd, but since then the coach has tried him as a permanent fwd on occasion and every time he has done this Kruez has hardly fired a shot. That is evidence mate, pure and simple.

Started I think with the Ess game last year, Kruez started fwd and couldn't hold a mark. I put it down to just a once off, but then this pre season has been the same story, he cannot take marks as a fwd right now, not often enough to warrant playing him primarily as a fwd now, given as a ruck he gives us great value now.

I think you are constantly overlooking 2 things...

1. I have said I believe Kruez may be able to play fwd in time, when he is stronger in the arms etc, but just not right now, and if you saw his performances playing fwd this pre-season you would have to agree. Again, the coach has decided based on the pre-season Kreuz will play ruck and not fwd (he said so after the game last weekend), so I'll take his word over yours sorry

2. It is about the NOW, as far as I am concerned. Right now, Kreuz is much, much, much better suited as a ruck, so why on earth would you play him as a fwd? Play him as a ruck, the vast majority of the time in 2010, that makes sense. Give him odd spells as a fwd, but really, he can play ruck now well so you play him ruck. As the coach seems to have realised too.

In 2 years if he is stronger in the air then I have no problem playing him fwd if he can hold more marks, enough to warrant playing fwd most of the time.

You don't make any sense at all mate.

In 2010 Kreuz looks a ruck but not a fwd, but you want to play him fwd.

Makes no sense.

Play him as a ruck, cause that is what d=he does well now, and hope in time he can hold marks as a fwd and if that day arrives, then you decide what is best - a CHF/FF or a RUCK. Let's hope we have that choice one day.

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