Disposal

Donstuie · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:01 pm

First, I don't want this to become another "Ratts can't coach" thread (and I request that the mods close it if it starts on that path). But a common theme throughout all the talk about gameplans, kick-in strategies and forward options has been poor disposal.

How many times do we read a match report and when reading about a particular player the sentence (however positive or negative it may have been) ends with "disposal let him down". We seem to have a lot of players who have question marks on their disposal, whether its through skill errors or bad decision-making. We also see it in our kicking for goal, where we'll regularly fluff chances and waste valuable energy, only for opposition teams to go bang the other way (most of the time against those red & black flowers). We see it in loopy handballs to stationery targets or pinpointing guys who just so happen to have three guys on them.

My question is how can this crucial element to the game be improved in our players? Yes, we can work on kick-in strategies, and looking for alternate avenues to goal, but isn't this just treating the symptoms? How can we fix the core of the problem?

The_Cranium · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:21 pm

It is concerning, but let's take a deep breath. It is still pre-season and cobwebs are still being blown out. regardless of how mentally 'switched' on players may think they are, they still have in the back of their mind 'it's only pre-season'. Let's see what happens season proper. i'm confident the skills will pick up. well, maybe hopeful is more the term i'm looking for :yikes:

Donstuie · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:25 pm

I hope so too, but haven't we been hopeful the past 3-4 years?

DIAMOTISM · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:10 pm

If you have crappy draft picks for many years then it is highly likely you will pick players that other teams have passed on due to something like poor skills. In the draft we do favour the athletic types and I feel we have always tried to draft another Kouta.

Geelong is proof that football skills are greater than an athlete.

Cazzesman · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:28 pm

Donstuie wrote:

First, I don't want this to become another "Ratts can't coach" thread (and I request that the mods close it if it starts on that path). But a common theme throughout all the talk about gameplans, kick-in strategies and forward options has been poor disposal.

How many times do we read a match report and when reading about a particular player the sentence (however positive or negative it may have been) ends with "disposal let him down". We seem to have a lot of players who have question marks on their disposal, whether its through skill errors or bad decision-making. We also see it in our kicking for goal, where we'll regularly fluff chances and waste valuable energy, only for opposition teams to go bang the other way (most of the time against those red & black !@#$%&). We see it in loopy handballs to stationery targets or pinpointing guys who just so happen to have three guys on them.

My question is how can this crucial element to the game be improved in our players? Yes, we can work on kick-in strategies, and looking for alternate avenues to goal, but isn't this just treating the symptoms? How can we fix the core of the problem?

This is not meant to be an excuse, just more of an informed observation. The general skill level of the TAC footballers is woeful for the amount of training they have. Poor fundamental skills rarely seem to be changed at the younger ages. In last years draft, out of the 70 U18 kids drafted only 10 would be considered decent kicks on both sides. Another 10 on their preferred side only.

I use to watch 1 kid for 3 TAC seasons and he had all the athletic traits required but his kicking was bordering on totally abysmal. His style was never changed in 3 entire seasons and in the end he never got drafted. That was a blight on all his coaches and he even made the Vic Metro team 1 year.

Many others that are good kicks are to slow for the AFL. By all accounts Juddy was never a great kick at U18 level but he has obviously worked on it.

Regards Cazzesman

Taff · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:39 pm

Cazzesman wrote:

Donstuie wrote:

First, I don't want this to become another "Ratts can't coach" thread (and I request that the mods close it if it starts on that path). But a common theme throughout all the talk about gameplans, kick-in strategies and forward options has been poor disposal.

How many times do we read a match report and when reading about a particular player the sentence (however positive or negative it may have been) ends with "disposal let him down". We seem to have a lot of players who have question marks on their disposal, whether its through skill errors or bad decision-making. We also see it in our kicking for goal, where we'll regularly fluff chances and waste valuable energy, only for opposition teams to go bang the other way (most of the time against those red & black !@#$%&). We see it in loopy handballs to stationery targets or pinpointing guys who just so happen to have three guys on them.

My question is how can this crucial element to the game be improved in our players? Yes, we can work on kick-in strategies, and looking for alternate avenues to goal, but isn't this just treating the symptoms? How can we fix the core of the problem?

This is not meant to be an excuse, just more of an informed observation. The general skill level of the TAC footballers is woeful for the amount of training they have. Poor fundamental skills rarely seem to be changed at the younger ages. In last years draft, out of the 70 U18 kids drafted only 10 would be considered decent kicks on both sides. Another 10 on their preferred side only.

I use to watch 1 kid for 3 TAC seasons and he had all the athletic traits required but his kicking was bordering on totally abysmal. His style was never changed in 3 entire seasons and in the end he never got drafted. That was a blight on all his coaches and he even made the Vic Metro team 1 year.

Many others that are good kicks are to slow for the AFL. By all accounts Juddy was never a great kick at U18 level but he has obviously worked on it.

Regards Cazzesman

I think Cazzesman has nailed the issue. With all the coach accreditation that is funded by the AFL, teaching disposal skills should be a priority. If a lad has been identified as someone of "talent" yet his foot skills are poor, then the under age coaches, Development Officers should be highlighting this deficiency and the player should be taught properly. If the boy does not improve in that area then recruiters should know that. Is there some one from the Development area that is looking at this issue I wonder?

The bio dynamics of teaching someone to kick and kick well on both sides is not difficult. I even taught an "up and under" Kiwi to kick effectively so there is always hope.

jim · **Joined:** Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm **Posts:** 8214

Donstuie wrote:

First, I don't want this to become another "Ratts can't coach" thread (and I request that the mods close it if it starts on that path). But a common theme throughout all the talk about gameplans, kick-in strategies and forward options has been poor disposal.

How many times do we read a match report and when reading about a particular player the sentence (however positive or negative it may have been) ends with "disposal let him down". We seem to have a lot of players who have question marks on their disposal, whether its through skill errors or bad decision-making. We also see it in our kicking for goal, where we'll regularly fluff chances and waste valuable energy, only for opposition teams to go bang the other way (most of the time against those red & black !@#$%&). We see it in loopy handballs to stationery targets or pinpointing guys who just so happen to have three guys on them.

My question is how can this crucial element to the game be improved in our players? Yes, we can work on kick-in strategies, and looking for alternate avenues to goal, but isn't this just treating the symptoms? How can we fix the core of the problem?

You'll find nearly every club's supporter's complain about the same thing, especially during the pre-season. More about the lack of intensity. Be surprised how suddenly that can improve, although some will always struggle with it from all clubs.

bondiblue · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:00 pm

Cazzesman wrote:

Donstuie wrote:

First, I don't want this to become another "Ratts can't coach" thread (and I request that the mods close it if it starts on that path). But a common theme throughout all the talk about gameplans, kick-in strategies and forward options has been poor disposal.

How many times do we read a match report and when reading about a particular player the sentence (however positive or negative it may have been) ends with "disposal let him down". We seem to have a lot of players who have question marks on their disposal, whether its through skill errors or bad decision-making. We also see it in our kicking for goal, where we'll regularly fluff chances and waste valuable energy, only for opposition teams to go bang the other way (most of the time against those red & black !@#$%&). We see it in loopy handballs to stationery targets or pinpointing guys who just so happen to have three guys on them.

My question is how can this crucial element to the game be improved in our players? Yes, we can work on kick-in strategies, and looking for alternate avenues to goal, but isn't this just treating the symptoms? How can we fix the core of the problem?

This is not meant to be an excuse, just more of an informed observation. The general skill level of the TAC footballers is woeful for the amount of training they have. Poor fundamental skills rarely seem to be changed at the younger ages. In last years draft, out of the 70 U18 kids drafted only 10 would be considered decent kicks on both sides. Another 10 on their preferred side only.

I use to watch 1 kid for 3 TAC seasons and he had all the athletic traits required but his kicking was bordering on totally abysmal. His style was never changed in 3 entire seasons and in the end he never got drafted. That was a blight on all his coaches and he even made the Vic Metro team 1 year.

Many others that are good kicks are to slow for the AFL. By all accounts Juddy was never a great kick at U18 level but he has obviously worked on it.

Regards Cazzesman

Thanks for that Cazz.

Good reason for the lack of consistency coming out of the TAC comp.
It seems the same every year...great player, but disposal....issues.

At least it can be worked on.

Lets take Walker, Anderson, Grigg and Browne for eg...why can't theie problems be coached out of them?

Armfield's kicking really improved in the 2nd half of last season because he probably (read TC) realised that he usually creates enough space between himself and his opponent to steady before executing the kick. Space creates poise and time to make the right choice under less pressure. I believe the disposal process though should be 2nd nature top blokes who kick the ball as much as they do at practise and with all the expert coaches around them.

In the 80's, if you couldn't kick you didn't get a look in at Carlton...pace was looked at as a differentiator after that.

No Browne's kicking was good if not better than Armfield's when he started and I don't know what's happened to Browne's disposal in the last 12 months....he had it...but has lost it.
How much is the fault of the development coaches or coaches in general?

Maybe Walker Anderson and Grigg can take a leaf out of Armfield's book on kicking improvement.

I mean even Carrazzo improved his kicking each year bit by bit to the point where he knows his own capability and limitations.

As BV once said...drills drills drills...to improve in all facets of the game.

grrofunger · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:02 pm

there is a large element of decision making problems as well which can at times make it look like poor disposal but it was just a bad decision

we have both problems

bondiblue · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:07 pm

Taff wrote:

Cazzesman wrote:

Donstuie wrote:

First, I don't want this to become another "Ratts can't coach" thread (and I request that the mods close it if it starts on that path). But a common theme throughout all the talk about gameplans, kick-in strategies and forward options has been poor disposal.

How many times do we read a match report and when reading about a particular player the sentence (however positive or negative it may have been) ends with "disposal let him down". We seem to have a lot of players who have question marks on their disposal, whether its through skill errors or bad decision-making. We also see it in our kicking for goal, where we'll regularly fluff chances and waste valuable energy, only for opposition teams to go bang the other way (most of the time against those red & black !@#$%&). We see it in loopy handballs to stationery targets or pinpointing guys who just so happen to have three guys on them.

My question is how can this crucial element to the game be improved in our players? Yes, we can work on kick-in strategies, and looking for alternate avenues to goal, but isn't this just treating the symptoms? How can we fix the core of the problem?

This is not meant to be an excuse, just more of an informed observation. The general skill level of the TAC footballers is woeful for the amount of training they have. Poor fundamental skills rarely seem to be changed at the younger ages. In last years draft, out of the 70 U18 kids drafted only 10 would be considered decent kicks on both sides. Another 10 on their preferred side only.

I use to watch 1 kid for 3 TAC seasons and he had all the athletic traits required but his kicking was bordering on totally abysmal. His style was never changed in 3 entire seasons and in the end he never got drafted. That was a blight on all his coaches and he even made the Vic Metro team 1 year.

Many others that are good kicks are to slow for the AFL. By all accounts Juddy was never a great kick at U18 level but he has obviously worked on it.

Regards Cazzesman

I think Cazzesman has nailed the issue. With all the coach accreditation that is funded by the AFL, teaching disposal skills should be a priority. If a lad has been identified as someone of "talent" yet his foot skills are poor, then the under age coaches, Development Officers should be highlighting this deficiency and the player should be taught properly. If the boy does not improve in that area then recruiters should know that. Is there some one from the Development area that is looking at this issue I wonder?

The bio dynamics of teaching someone to kick and kick well on both sides is not difficult. I even taught an "up and under" Kiwi to kick effectively so there is always hope.

I think the weak (or negligent) development coaches of the TAC or junior levels where kids are recruited from should be exposed similarly to the new Federal Govts "Schools website". Hopefully and probable, they would do every thing in their power to improve their status by improving the skillset of the kids under their jurisdiction (training program), otherwise they will continue to coach their favourites whilst they continue to be neglect the kids with basic needs.

Kicking and Handball skills are basic to teach the young...I guess it's just as easy for coached to neglect kids they will have in their program for only 1 or 2 or 3 years. Coaches must be held accountable. TAC coaches are paid aren't they? To do what?

Now lets focus on our own backyard now that it's too late for the TAC coaches to do anything about their deficiencies.
CFC has to fix up the weaknesses of our players or cut/ trade the players who can't be fixed.

ThePsychologist · **Joined:** Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 am **Posts:** 7893

Been an issue for me for a long while!!!! :banghead:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24458

bondiblue · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:11 pm

ThePsychologist wrote:

Been an issue for me for a long while!!!! :banghead:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24458

I remember that.

Have we improved our training since then, or is it that we have recruited better kickers since then and the dvelopment coaches have done jack shit...because it seems that way to me...and for a few old timers who played for CFC in the 80's.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18031

The major problem is funding within the TAC system. The sad fact of the matter is the TAC system will often pass on a kid with substandard kicking skills or play them but accept that they wont get drafted rather than putting major work into them. Blame the AFL because unless you are a "developing market", you have extremely limited resources and funding.
Go to QLD or Sydney and there are 3 development officers doing the job of one funded officer in Victoria. Most TAC clubs have limited support staff, zero technology and terrible facilities. All this from a game that gets 3/4 of a billion in TV rights.

Several clubs have kicking coaches but they'll tinker with the kids who require minor rectification. Those that have serious flaws will be assisted but wont recieve the intensive work they require.
A lot of the problem goes back to junior coaching but lets remember, most junior coaches are Johnnys old man who is doing his best.
The level 1 course now includes a basic session on kicking coaching but it's not enough. Until the AFL tip some money into junior development, the situation wont improve.

ColourMan · **Joined:** Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am **Posts:** 1291

Cazzesman wrote:

Donstuie wrote:

First, I don't want this to become another "Ratts can't coach" thread (and I request that the mods close it if it starts on that path). But a common theme throughout all the talk about gameplans, kick-in strategies and forward options has been poor disposal.

How many times do we read a match report and when reading about a particular player the sentence (however positive or negative it may have been) ends with "disposal let him down". We seem to have a lot of players who have question marks on their disposal, whether its through skill errors or bad decision-making. We also see it in our kicking for goal, where we'll regularly fluff chances and waste valuable energy, only for opposition teams to go bang the other way (most of the time against those red & black !@#$%&). We see it in loopy handballs to stationery targets or pinpointing guys who just so happen to have three guys on them.

My question is how can this crucial element to the game be improved in our players? Yes, we can work on kick-in strategies, and looking for alternate avenues to goal, but isn't this just treating the symptoms? How can we fix the core of the problem?

This is not meant to be an excuse, just more of an informed observation. The general skill level of the TAC footballers is woeful for the amount of training they have. Poor fundamental skills rarely seem to be changed at the younger ages. In last years draft, out of the 70 U18 kids drafted only 10 would be considered decent kicks on both sides. Another 10 on their preferred side only.

I use to watch 1 kid for 3 TAC seasons and he had all the athletic traits required but his kicking was bordering on totally abysmal. His style was never changed in 3 entire seasons and in the end he never got drafted. That was a blight on all his coaches and he even made the Vic Metro team 1 year.

Many others that are good kicks are to slow for the AFL. By all accounts Juddy was never a great kick at U18 level but he has obviously worked on it.

Regards Cazzesman

Some clubs have made drafting players who are decent kicks a prerequisite of their recruiting, unfortunately we haven't! :roll:

Agro jr · **Joined:** Sat May 19, 2007 3:04 pm **Posts:** 1007

Having just finished my career at junior football - I can tell you from personal experience that for my junior league that feeds into the Calder Cannons, unless you are around 6 foot 1 (and above) at the age of 14, can run the 100 in even time you have no chance of getting through the junior development program.

Doesnt matter if you cant kick or cant handball - as long as your are tall and you can run you get selected.

I am not saying that I should have ever got through into the Cannons (far from it) - however I know that I can kick better (on both sides) than just about every player from my side that was invited to train down at Cannons, and I know a couple of forwards who were sent down to Cannons that benefited from the lace out footpasses that I used to feed them. :wink:

But unfortunatley I was not blessed with height or great pace (thanks Dad :lol:

) - so was no chance of an invitation.

If this is the standard that is acceptable at TAC Cup level then its no wonder that when players get drafted we all lament the fact that they cant kick or handball.

My dad reckons that a player like Greg Williams would have no chance of getting through into the TAC Cup system these days - and that we actually passed him up the first time.

Belisarius · **Joined:** Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:20 am **Posts:** 548

Disposal for me has always been a bugbear, but I can understand why under different regimes athletes, especially for the speculative picks were chosen. The main problem was we didn't have the coaching resources at the time to rectify some of the technique problems that could be. You also have the problem with guys who have worked on their technique that you can literally see them thinking about their kicking action rather than it being an automatic thing. In that extra split second a lot can change. This usually leads to that annoying over kicking.

It's a rock and a hard place with the youth coaching. Practice makes perfect and the younger you learn a skill correctly the better, but kicking a football, especially as we do in AFL is such an unnatural action for the human body. You just can't do too much with young developing bodies if they come to you with major flaws, because of the physical problems you could cause and to be on the safe side it has to be a gradual thing. They get to higher levels and the fitness work goes through the roof and the repetitive kicking that is needed to rectify probs is an invitation for OP to come on down. It's a real balancing act.

Perhaps the AFL could start handing out a few books to the junior, junior coaches. The Science of Kicking wouldn't be a bad one to start with IMO.

Belisarius · **Joined:** Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:20 am **Posts:** 548

Agro jr wrote:

Having just finished my career at junior football - I can tell you from personal experience that for my junior league that feeds into the Calder Cannons, unless you are around 6 foot 1 (and above) at the age of 14, can run the 100 in even time you have no chance of getting through the junior development program.

Doesnt matter if you cant kick or cant handball - as long as your are tall and you can run you get selected.

I am not saying that I should have ever got through into the Cannons (far from it) - however I know that I can kick better (on both sides) than just about every player from my side that was invited to train down at Cannons, and I know a couple of forwards who were sent down to Cannons that benefited from the lace out footpasses that I used to feed them. :wink:

But unfortunatley I was not blessed with height or great pace (thanks Dad :lol:

) - so was no chance of an invitation.

If this is the standard that is acceptable at TAC Cup level then its no wonder that when players get drafted we all lament the fact that they cant kick or handball.

My dad reckons that a player like Greg Williams would have no chance of getting through into the TAC Cup system these days - and that we actually passed him up the first time.

Blame Kouta mate :grin:

Kouta · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:43 pm

Belisarius wrote:

Perhaps the AFL could start handing out a few books to the junior, junior coaches. The Science of Kicking wouldn't be a bad one to start with IMO.

Or buy Goal masters for everyone...

[youtube]46QkHuI1x24[/youtube]
[youtube]g1bTMyyrOHE[/youtube]

Captain Dan · **Posted:** Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:47 pm

HAHA! Those GoalMaster videos you just posted Kouta, are ones that I personally uploaded from the VHS tape that I had as a kid.
Hope you all enjoy :thumbsup:

SurreyBlue · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am **Posts:** 10595

Agro jr wrote:

Having just finished my career at junior football - I can tell you from personal experience that for my junior league that feeds into the Calder Cannons, unless you are around 6 foot 1 (and above) at the age of 14, can run the 100 in even time you have no chance of getting through the junior development program.

Doesnt matter if you cant kick or cant handball - as long as your are tall and you can run you get selected.

I am not saying that I should have ever got through into the Cannons (far from it) - however I know that I can kick better (on both sides) than just about every player from my side that was invited to train down at Cannons, and I know a couple of forwards who were sent down to Cannons that benefited from the lace out footpasses that I used to feed them. :wink:

But unfortunatley I was not blessed with height or great pace (thanks Dad :lol:

) - so was no chance of an invitation.

If this is the standard that is acceptable at TAC Cup level then its no wonder that when players get drafted we all lament the fact that they cant kick or handball.

My dad reckons that a player like Greg Williams would have no chance of getting through into the TAC Cup system these days - and that we actually passed him up the first time.

Here it is a nut shell. We are obsessed with the athlete instead of the footballer.
Some-one said it before hand, Geelong have showen all the right road, yet still some don't get it. :banghead:

Disposal

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