I wouldn't mind if Pitto was brought in on a horses for courses basis. And this seems like not a bad game to bring him in.

TDK said in his interview that we're going to look at varying our style as the season progresses.

Carlton by 119 points

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#DonTheStash

Thats it CK . Horses for courses , mix and match .

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All my dangerous friends

No one is piling it on me Mickstar. Some posters are just giving their opinion on Pitto as a ruck man, albeit vulgar in some instances, with no facts to back it up.

I'm just sick of people writing off our players with emotive language instead of reasoning: facts, not made up emotive bullshit or a hunch. This isn't me sticking up for the list, its more than that.We have a coach and team mates haven't written anyone off. See what TDK said about Pitto yesterday.

Every player on this list plays an important role. We will notice that at the end of the year when we have to let go 5-6 players.

Pitto will play this year, whether some personally like it or not, and we are going to appreciate it when he does, because he will be picked when he's required especially so given there is no other ruck on our list who could play the ruck role without disrupting the structure of the team. Some weeks that will be more important than others.

I'm going to piss myself if, but hopefully not, TDK can't get up due to injury, fatigue, cocaine management (joke), whatever, and if he's not already playing AFL, he is picked, and we win with the so called "useless" player.

With 7 Best 23 players out injured we are still winning, which goes to show how important depth is, and the importance of player no. 30 is on our list.

In this scenario Pitto might be player No 31 for some. He can do the job when callled up. He's not useless and we are not a worse team with Pitto playing as some suggest. He's in my best 22 in Finals, ie horses for courses, and when we are up against 2 rucks, or a ruck who is too dominant for TDK. Doesn't matter, there is a reason to play him with TDK and there will be a need for Pitto to play when in need. He doesnt have to play every week. Like TDK said, at present Vossy is having a look at rucking TDK on his own. Just happens Pitto wasn't fit when round 0 team was picked, and not because we've moved on from Pitto in the ruck (which is just an opinion put forward as a fact).

Last year we had posters wanting to trade Harry because they suggested he didn't want to ruck. You'd think they had a hotline to Harry and he told them that. Opinion stated as fact.

They are all our boys and they all have a role to play. Players don't make the decision on the team, nor do posters, the coach and MC do.

This is a good list, even with 7 of our best out. There was good reason to sign up Pitto for 4 years. Its smart. Call him depth, call him insurance, and in Finals I would bet Vossy will call on him, just like Clark Keating was for the Lions in their three peat and that selection was done for good reason.

There's a case for nearly every experienced player to be selected. The MC have a choice with all of them, and they will make selections unpopular with some (case every week) based on what player form and fitness and what they can give the team to help them win.

Say nice things, be reasonable and don't write any player off after 4 rounds of footy; that's all I ask.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Exactly. OBrien is a scary prospect for TDK to face alone like he had to last year agter Pitto went down injured and as we all know by now....TDK was relegated to reserves after that embarrassment. I don't want that to happen again.

That H4C policy would exist for the same good reason a player is on our list.

I'm more worried against this team without a win than any of the last 4 teams we've beaten, including Lions.

We have to be ready to take them on.

I will be happy with 19 points, or even 1.9 points.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Agree with this.
I don’t know Bondi except through TC but to me he is one of the more thoughtful contributors and it is great that he takes the time to articulate his thoughts. Whether or not we agree, at least I am confident he believes what he is writing or, as is often the case, is raising genuine conundrums or options for discussion (as distinct from some media agitators).
I know Bondi can defend himself but I’m keen to have the discussions and debates but without the vitriol.
In any event, Vossy usually makes a fool of most of us every Thursday about 6:30pm


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its coz he gives us facts, Mick

we dont want facts here at TC - well, i dont anyway - i want conjecture, speculation, unfounded rumours, uncontained bias, opinions (all of them), emotion, passion, rage, tears, joy, nervousness and constant Essendon* bashing

but facts???? pfft... who needs them

btw, bondi's work was top notch, and quite correct.... in my opinion

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my last one was rubbish

Fair play Bondi. I genuinely don’t have the capacity to engage in robust discussion around the ruckman so I’m happy to concede.

I maintain my opinion that he doesn’t offer enough around the ground to share the ruck duties. If he was playing 70-80% ruck then ok, but then I feel TDK not being utilised. Anyway just my opinion, without statistical analysis to back anything up.

As you were


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Chill out it’s a fan footy forum not the Supreme Court. Not everyone is going to write a dissertation on why a certain player should or should not be selected


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Good report of empirical numbers disecting our current output with turnovers and clearances.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/1105578/carlton-blues-geelong-cats-defy-poor-clearance-to-prove-turnover-game-is-key

Its not great because there's a few flaws in the hypothesis and he hasn't accounted for the full story. But its great reading to see the actual numbers and what we've given up, and what we've gained.

First issue I have is the assumption of the huge decline in scores from our one wood, scores from clearance is attributed to Walsh not being at Centre Bounces. If Nathan Schmook followed Carlton like we do he'd know that other than last years the 3 Finals, Walsh predominantly started off at HF and joined the midfield group thereafter.

The report suggests Hewett has filled the void for Walsh whilst he's been out injured. That is so wrong in so many ways. Not only do we know, but it has been highlighted in the media that Hewett has taken the oppositions best midfielder, and quietened him down, whilst winning plenty of ball himself to be our most outstanding mid this year. Credit where credit is due. Very different role than Walshy's. Also, Hewett was one of the starting mids at CB's more than Walsh and others last year, except in Finals.

In this article, there is no account for the rucks who obviously play a role in ALL stoppages and ALL CBs regardless of the mids feeding from him. A most important fact. The writer has missed that important point, like some bias posters do, maybe because it didn't suit his hypothesis portraying Walsh as the reason for a drop in scores from clearances. Negligent to miss that point, but serves a purpose for his hypothesis. I only care about the facts; all of them. The whole picture. Why were our mids so dominant in the clearances last year with Pitto as No 1 ruck? We've gone down from positive 2.8 from CBs to negative 4.8. That's a huge drop and nothing to turn a blind eye to and rest on the fact we have improved our turnover goals because of that decline. Bullshit I say to that.

I hope this week, our team doesn't fall for this story, and believe all the bullshit by assuming we will solve all our clearance problems with the return of Walsh in the middle, only to see Crows come in ready to take everything away from us including the 4 points.

Our turnover game starts either from the backline, especially so in the winning goals in Lions, started from Mitch McGoverns intercept mark, and Freo games turnover in the dying minutes from Williams' daring run, and surprisingly mostly from forward half pressure ie smalls have been doing their role to create a turnover.

Those turnover goals have nothing to do with rucks. Zero. And some posters are making up stories that its due to TDK being in the ruck to suit their narrative for one ruck. Baloney.

Its a new layer in our game. We have a super fit team who can run run run, and adding Walshy's 15km to the team will see more run. If we can get our one wood back in Clearances we will be formidable. Lets remember we only won the Lions, Tigers and Freo game by a kick (discounting the decent charity goal), so turnover scores are great but not the answer alone. We need to get our one wood back.

I am strongly of the opinion the scores from clerarance (offensively and defensively) from Pitto's ruck work are far greater than the gain we have from TDK rucking all game on his own, to create, what some think we really need, more run run run. Its a fallacy. We might "look" lighter with TDK as the sole ruck, but at what cost? No reason why we can't have the 2 ruck weapons playing for us on a horses for courses basis if not a weekly, as our modus operandi.

Vossy said he's going to work on our clearances from this week. He knows Walshy is our running link man and not our contested bull. If Pitto is brought back in to fix that this week great, if not, hopefully TDK can just work to nullify the opposition ruck and have the ball fall closer to our contested bulls at the stoppages who will feed the ball out to the running man, Walsh.

But lets hope TDK isn't injured rucking on his own, because if he does, the shit hits the fan on our structures, especially without a third marking forward who would fill the void if Harry goes into the ruck. And lets hope Harry doesnt get injured in the ruck either.

Go Blues

Have to win this game and tune up our game in readiness for what could be (if we win this week) the top of the table clash with GWS, and then we will really find out where we are at this season.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Just a random thought about form lines:
Everyone raving about GWS and they have looked good. BUT apart from Coll who maybe weren’t as good as we thought - esp in the first round zero - they have beaten up om North and West Coast, and overran a plucky Suns team that had made 7 changes, bringing in a bunch of newbs (as my 9yr old would say).
I think we’ve had a much tougher run, except the Kangas but including the game against Richmond where I would argue they played their best team (at least to start with) and were amped up.
I’m not saying we’ve been amazing either, just that it’s still a bit early IMO to be citing form lines and stats (@david king, @ champion data).
We do need to be solid against Adelaide but if we do get through this week with a good win and no (more) injuries, we should be absolutely up for the GWS challenge the next week.
PS. The Cats have also beaten up on 2 winless teams and just scraped over the line against the Saints and Dogs.


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We'll bring Walsh and Pitto in and when we win the clearances it will be put down to Walsh

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░L░I░N░K░I░N░B░I░O ░

Good onya 17th.

We dont have to agree. I like to read everyone's input as long as its balanced, factual and not bias or agenda driven...and not belittling the importance of every player on this current list.

We have to keep things real because we love Carlton and we want to see the resurgence of Carlton happen and be sustainable. We shouldnt think its happening or going to happen. There's too many variables, injury being one. I think we have a great list and if we can replace (like for like) some of the injury prone players we will continue to have good depth and a formidable first and seconds team which is imperative for Premiership success.

We have to believe in the sum of the group, not on individual performances, and have faith in our coach and MC to make the correct decisions every week to suit up the best team for each opponent, which is not likely to happen every week due to injury, confidence and at times too much confidence in a players ability.

We are the real deal and need to get better every week and be fresh and ready for a Finals onslaught from the Top 4 position to give us a good chance for 17th.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Why say that jake? How does that add to the discussion?

Don't attack me, attack the argument and add value instead of calling players "useless" and thinking lesser of posters who have and take the time to discuss and share thoughts and facts with the TC Community.

We are a very small community here at TC, so be respectful and try and be factual. We know its not the Supreme Court, but you don't need to tell people they need to chill out when they've written a 3 line post. Do you? Why would you?

We are all Carlton. Sorry if I embarrassed you by pointing out your argument made no sense. Lets not turn TC into a forum where slandering players or posters is the norm. That doesn't add value.

Would you be good enough to respond to the questions I posed for you? Its good discussion. If not, cool.

After reading your last post I'm not sure you if you're in disagreeance with me TBH. If you are in agreeance with some of the points I made, you have a weird way of showing it.

Bluebaggers

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

bondi, if you scroll up I think you'll see he was quite conciliatory in his response to you.

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#DonTheStash

GWS are good and they should have been playing and winning the GF last year if it were not for blatant bias umpiring in the prelim to get Pies into the GF. They have depth and some serious firepower and are super fit, like us.

David King will change his mind every week. That's what he does.
Just because he writes the headlines and makes predictions who will be there at the pointy end, he is not looking at the season, he is reflecting on the season on a week to week basis.

He's the media.

We are the ones who have to keep it real.

Tiges were at their best. We had Weitering, Walsh, Marchbank, Martin, Hollands, motlop, Doc and SOS missing. Previous week we had Doc for half a game and the rest missing.
I obviously think we got beaten in the ruck and therefore in clearances, where Tiges, North and Freo have also been on top.

I don't think we are near our best TBH. Like all teams we can't afford injury to our spine and still think Cripps is our most important mid and we rely on him too much.

We have to win this week. Its a danger game. Win against the Crows and then it will be our boys who are amped up, playing at home, looking to find out if they are the real deal, and king of the jungle after round 6.

We've got Walsh back this week, and other than Hollands or Pitto in or out, it will be a full dress rehearsal for the GWS game.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

The response to bender? If that's what you're referring to, I don't think the correct word is concilliatory....telling him to chill out?

I miss the old jake. He was full of analysis and facts supporting his arguments. I didn't always agree with him but he was convincing at most.

I prefer him to give us more than Pitto is "useless"...compared to who? why? and what proof is there so I can have reason to not worry about missing our 2 rucks playing together?

Its cold outside again in Sydney today. 23 but feels 15. I need to be stimulated....indoors.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

It's 16 here in Melbourne & I've got lamb shank soup on the stove

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#DonTheStash

Theo Doropoulos
@TheoDrop
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46m
Carlton’s Sam Walsh got through this morning’s session at Ikon Park and will play against the Crows on Saturday.

Will make his long awaited return after a pre-season back issue.

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I'm shocked to be sitting here

Hey Bondi, I come in peace. How on earth did I attack you?

I don't rate Pitto outside the ruck contest, that's all. I think he is a decent enough ruckman when playing in the ruck but with the trajectory TDK is on I just don't have in my best 22 and am surprised that others do. It's just an opinion. I don't think I said anything too inflamatory.

I said I was happy to concede as you presented a far more detailed and insightful argument and I didn't have time to enter a robust discussion.

Bender posted something about not presenting facts relying conjecture and speculation or whatever, I just said chill out, we don't all have to do hours of research to validate an opinion on a footy forum. For me TC is like chatting about footy at the pub. I do it for fun and don't take it so seriously.

FWIW I miss the old me too. I've got a lot going on in life at the moment and just as much time to devote to this site as I used to

Love your passion and long analytical posts even if I don't always have time read them. We're all blue baggers and love the club, so we're all on the same team here. And if Pitto is selected I'll be hoping he plays a blinder

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