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To tank or not to tank???
YES - lets get picks 1 and 2 this year and be a force for the next 10 seasons 42%  42%  [ 77 ]
NO - we will be right with what we've got 58%  58%  [ 106 ]
Total votes : 183
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:28 am 
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Craig Bradley
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bondiblue wrote:
Look the AFL has done it's all to inflict doom and gloom on this mighty club but failed to put the final nail in the coffin.

Whilst Evans was alive, the AFL penalised Carlton with drfat picks and a million dollars; unprecedented. They also changed the rules last year so that we couldn't get a PP. Why?

The AFL realised that despite the fact that our list was the youngest in the competition, it has the most upside. They thought that teams like StKilda with 4 #1 picks, 3 #2 picks and 9 top 10 draftees are probably the only team that could flower up that sort of opportunity (the AFL gave them), but with Carlton they saw something different; Carlton.

The AFL knew that just the addition of Gibbs to that young list, followed by picks 17 and 19 in the superdraft to sort out the missing link (the ruck issue), that Carlton would once again be an indelible force; and sooner than anyone else had believed. The AFL knew we couldn't win as few as 4 games in 2007; they could see the upside, the potential, the quality.

I don't think we should worry about tanking; it's a lost cause. We have once again become the most attactive club to join in Victoria. We are a superpower, with an awesome history, a great redevelopment of player facilties, a very very good list, albeit young, and a very cagey President, with a lot of influence. We will snag a big name or 2 in the near future, maybe 2008, as well as a couple more good draftees in 2008.

But instead of thinking tanking, I'm thinking of finals in 2007.

This year, with only 11 games required for 8th place in a very even year, I can't see anyone beating us for the remainder of the year, and we have the luxury of dropping 4 games, maybe 3 to play it safe.

We don't play WCE or the Cats again. We play 3 games at home (Dome), 3 games at our spiritual home (MCG) and 4 interstate games against Freo, Swans, Lions and Port.

I can't see us losing more than.....???...um...well I can't see us losing. We might drop 3 or 4; that's what I see. Might! Highly likely we'll lose a couple though....umpires are out there.

They're only kids are they are winning one on one footy and have learned to win shoot outs. There is a new belief and relief with our belief.

We don't 'need' to tank, we need to have a good look at the list we have, believe in it, and watch it improve at every outing. We have a very very good, deep list, albeit young. We just need a ruckman and another 2 midfielders to keep the pressure on Grigg, Anderson, Benji and Jackson to perform.

We are also already guaranteed the recruitment of a 27 yo elite midfielder next year called Nick Stevens. :wink:

Baby Blues are heading for finals and flags.


love the hope in it, but cant see us making finals this year.

if we win 8+ games i will be rapted ( :wink: )

seriously, i have enjoyed this year alot, even our loses (despite geelong) we have played some good footy, and even could consider our position on the ladder as unlucky.

we should have beaten both North and Brisbane and you could argue Crows and Collingwood (if we played four quaters)

so we could very easily have been sitting with 7 wins or so already then i may say we are a chance for finals.

but we are going along nicely, its just a matter of time, get a few more pre-seasons into the kids, more game time, we are heading in the right direction, and the right direction with a bullet.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:04 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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:?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:19 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Better strap ourselves in for a fortnight of tank talk.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:22 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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camelboy wrote:
Better strap ourselves in for a fortnight of tank talk.


10 weeks. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:28 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Yeah, you're probably right. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:30 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Not from me you won't. I will NEVER support the club I love sinking lower just so they can fill their team with more draft picks. If they ever did I would leave, end of discussion.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:51 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Where's the po-faced emoticon when you need it?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:17 am 
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Rod Ashman
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We can still get picks 1 and 4. Let's do it... :wink: Surely, you can't say we actually tried tonight...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:05 am 
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Harry Vallence

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A PP won't make our midfield disciplined and accountable

We will get another player and with a certain someone still at the helm, we will continue blindly playing like frontrunners until we come good

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:13 am 
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Horrie Clover
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I'm really not too sure where to from here. Last night was a very big reality check because we all got ahead of ourselves (me included).

Realistically, i cant see us winning a game till we play St Kilda in round 17 (considering our record against them, we will probably lose that also).

We are going to finish the season with 5 wins and i am going to be pissed off because we will miss out on one of Cotchin/Kreuzer when we really should have had both.

Check out the remainder of our schedule.....


Round 13 - Fremantle @ Subiaco - big loss
Round 14 - Melbourne @ MCG - a close loss...they are better than most think
Round 15 - Sydney @ SCG - big loss
Round 16 - Brisbane @ Gabba - loss by 4-5 goals
Round 17 - St Kilda @ TD - possible win but considering we play crap against them and its at TD, who knows?
Round 18 - Collingwood @ MCG - we wont beat them with the finals approaching
Round 19 - Port @ AS - loss by 7-8 goals...we cant travel!!!
Round 20 - Essendon* @ MCG - close loss...they will be playing for finals while we may have conceded that we want the PP after all???
Round 21 - Kangaroos @ TD - loss by 5-6 goals against a side ready for finals
Round 22 - Melbourne @ MCG - wait for it...TANK!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:18 am 
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formerly Army the Wonderkid
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Does last nights game really say anything about tanking?

To me it says there are still holes in our team that need to be filled hopefully from the young players we have now. To me it says its a waste playing Whitnall, Bannister, Saddington and Houlihan and we should be playing other players to learn the game.

Whats the point in plugging your finger in the dyke with stuff you know will wash away?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:20 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Ando the Wonderkid wrote:
To me it says its a waste playing Whitnall, Bannister, Saddington and Houlihan and we should be playing other players to learn the game.

Quite honestly, the reason we lost it last night is that we were smashed in the midfield (although ironically our midfield players were some of our best). We need a genuine ruckman - someone that can hit the ball to our advantage from the stoppages. Until we get that we will be mediocre.

However, you do allude to the fact that we need more class in our side. I don't believe that we will really tank, but I would love to get my hands on two of the top four picks in the draft.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:41 pm 
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Trevor Keogh
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We don’t want another year like 2004 by winning meaningless games with short term prospects...Bannister is ok, as well as Saddington, but they won’t improve and therefore we wont be able to become a top 4 side.

We need to bite the Bullet and trust our young players so they can actually develop and learn...

IMO Houlihan is a very good player, but gets played out of position he is a Forward Flanker not a defender and not a follower.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:52 pm 
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Garry Crane
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Oh @#$%&! here we go again!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:53 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

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We threw away the PP in the last two weeks with wins that were brought on by mature players with no future -

For example:

Bannister destroyed Johnson - until Banno went on to him we were toast. But Banno ain't the future. If Hawthorn were in our position they would've played Bower, not Banno, Johnson would've kicked 6, and we lose, but get the PP.

Saddo was good the last two weeks as was Wiggo as was Ackland as was....

But they aren't gonna take this club further!

We didn't have the balls to take our full dose of medicine. We will win 5-6 games - disaster, waste of year, detrimental to future premiership chances.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:05 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Pagan is coaching for himself not for the best long term interests of the footy club.

But he wont be here next year.

And he will cost us.

As for the bloke that would sooner walk away than get picks... so youd walk away if we had Hawthorns list would you?
Get real!!!..
all this banana talk with bravado pills is abit weak.
Of course you prefer Murphy to Ellis or Thomas.
And you Collingwood prefer Pendelbury and Thomas to the what the team that came 4th last that draft got!!!

Its called list building.. thats the main way you improve your list these days....

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:25 pm 
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formerly Yazzamatazz
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All i can say is the PP is gone... Even if we try to get it, it is gone...

The next best thing we can do is get our hands on the 2nd pick so that we get the best Midfielder or KPP player depending on what Richmond get.

We need to hope for a miracle in the pre season draft as well.

Good educated picks with the rest of them and go from there....

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:35 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Strange how Pagan can be accused of coaching for himself when Pratt had made a point of saying he wants to see 10 to 11 wins, in the wake of Stevo's loss. He could have come out and said we were still in development mode, would play youngsters as the main priority, and that wins were not the main objective. But he didn't.

But apparently the coach should ignore the lead of the President.

I think what you're really saying is that Pratt was selfish and misguided when he set those goals for Pagan and the team.

The other thing is that Bannister was played because he deserved it. And few if any of the younger players did. In fact, the development of some may have been harmed.

One example is Bower. Even at VFL level, Mitchell is on his back about being accountable as a defender. Given the current outcry about unaccountable players, it would have been ironic if we'd rewarded a youngster for showing that same quality. Of course, if he were dragged repeatedly on the AFL stage, there'd be much anguish about the mistreatment of a youngster.

I'm flabbergasted that there can be anger about the selection of a tall, athletic 24 year old in form good enough to shut out Brad Johnson and Chad Cornes in successive weeks. The kicker is the disappointment that the first of those was a match-winning performance.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:43 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Indie wrote:
Strange how Pagan can be accused of coaching for himself when Pratt had made a point of saying he wants to see 10 to 11 wins. He could have come out and said we were still in development, would play youngsters as the main priority, and that wins were not the main objective. But he didn't.

But apparently the coach should ignore the lead of the President.

I think what you're really saying is that Pratt was selfish and misguided when he set those goals for Pagan and the team.

The other thing is that Bannister was played because he deserved it. And few if any of the younger players did. In fact, the development of some may have been harmed.

One example is Bower. Even at VFL level, Mitchell is on his back about being accountable as a defender. Given the current outcry about unaccountable players, it would have been ironic if we'd rewarded a youngster for showing those same qualities. Of course, if he were dragged repeatedly on the AFL stage, there'd be much anguish about the mistreatment of a youngster.

I'm flabbergasted that there can be anger about the selection of a tall, athletic 24 year old in form good enough to shut out Brad Johnson and Chad Cornes in successive weeks. The kicker is the disappointment that the first of those was a match-winning performance.


Pratt might not be in tune with the complexities of modern day team building...
Finance and business might be more his thing.
Sticks and Pagan and now Swann and Icke too (i reckon to a lesser extent these two right now as theyre new) are in charge of team rebuilding while Dick is rebuilding the club.
So is Lance accountable???
Or Kouta???

At least Bower can run and rebound.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:57 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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If the axe falls on Kouta and/or Lance, I won't be complaining.

And I hope to see Bower in shortly. Hopefully, he's got the message now, as his speed would be a great asset. His job on O'Loughlin last year was excellent. But I reckon the time he spent in the VFL will have done him more good than a stint in the seniors that he didn't deserve.


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