BVs list is spot on.

Also resources don't impact on his inability to talk to the Ants coach. Fault on both sides, maybe we should have paid Mitch out, but at the end of the day a crucial skill for a coach is to be able to work with a wide range of people and his unwillingness to maintain a profesional relationship with Mitchell is damning on them both, but particulalry PAgan as the head man.

The fact that Barney French turned his back on $600k over two years when we are desperate for a competitive ruckman with good leadership and the fact that ADL retired at 24 with a year to run on his contract indicate to me that those two quite intelligent and reasonable guys had had a gutful. (I'm not saying ADL was a good player but he had a contract and would have been our regular ruckman, surely his accounting career could have waited a year).

The other issue is that if DP is reappointed then it will cost us more than paying him out in lost members.

I didn't really want him in the first place (unlike many here who went from proclaimed 'Pagan lovers' who thought he could do no wrong to now seeing him as the devil incarnate). But the game has passed him by. Do we have any set plays, have we improved this year....

Why did he want Zantuck and Ackland. If we say the recycled draft of 03 was necessary (there is some argument for that) what about Chambers and Longmuir, both in the system for years, not hard to work out they would fail. The player taken after CHambers was Moran at North. He'd be our first ruck if we hadn't chosen a guy who had proven over six years on a senior list he wasn't up to it.

If DP survives, next year will be the same as this year, last year, the year before that. Yes DP has had a hard run with draft penalties and lack of resources, but he is getting a fortune. Carey may say no-one could do better, who could have done worse? I reckon Britts would have done no worse and with the salary savings we could have employed two extra coaches.

Whatever the mitigating circumstances we haven't improved and I think we are worse we should be. The reason you have a coach is to make you better than the sum of your parts. Pagan hasn't done that in 5 years. Hopefully he will deliver another #1 draft pick, probably making him the only coach in history that has delivered 3 #1 pick and 4 PPs. A legacy that should (if Hughes is on target - and he better be) delievr big time to our new coach (who better not be Michael (I'm too good to require any experience' Voss).

FLOWERING OATH!

The perfect post

Well said

I hope Swanny thinks like you BV

I think North and the Dogs have as little to spend as we had.
BUT... at least they are showing something. Thir kids are showing something.
They have a gameplan now..
We have had nothing in five years!
NOTHING!
Man management has been terrible too!
Must leave and he should pull the pin himself!.. just out of self pride!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I agree the resource issue is a mitigating factor in performance on the field. How much of one clearly is up for debate, as one the one hand we have $$$d up Collingwood vs ghetto Kangas both getting results.

I stick to my original point though - if DP has lost the playing group i think all these arguments for and against are redundant and he needs to go. Fair or unfair that is a fact of life in the dynamic between a coach and a team.

i remember listening to laidley late last year talk about how the kangas, given their limited resources, would sit down as a football dept and structure up in order to get the best out of the people they had there.

what do we get in return from pagan in terms of direction? just a bunch of bullshit cliches and a "don't worry i've been in this caper a long time, i know what i'm doing" sound grab ...

oh but then we find out pagan's experience hasn't actually prepared him for life in charge of a bottom team at all, that he's been learning these past 5 years!!

what he's actually "learned" he's yet to articulate, which i guess for pagan would involve concocting another "quality" sound bite ...

it's time for him to "put one foot in front of the other" and get the flower out of the place

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... an eagle flew out of the night. he was something to observe, came in close i heard a voice, bending stretching every nerve, had to listen had no choice ...

..lookit, it goes like this.. ..sure, i dig the way poor funding can hamstring a club, but there's a difference between being just that little bit short, and just being plan atrocious.. ..and we are atrocious.. ..the sheer amount of spankings we've had over the last three years is dreadful.. ..quite simply, Pagan's done his dash.. ..screw the PP, i'd rather see improvement and high morale in the players we have, vs them resenting the club all for some punk kid that we may get.. ..and let's not forget rd 22 is no certainty.. ..for those ppl that think there's not much difference betwen picks 2 & 3 so the Dee's won't throw the last game, i say that i'd prefer the choice of second pick all the same.. ..also, sure we get a new coach (hopefully!!) at season's end and we all want him to review the team before trade.. ..but who-ever's in will only see what Pagan's served up, which they already know.. ..hence, no true idea on player's ability/skill/fitness.. ..a new (caretaker)coach will hopefully experiment with team dynamics and that way we get to see another aspect to our playing list (again, hopefully)..

..stuff waiting for tomorrow to fix the club, that's a slacker's philosophy.."i'll fix it tomorrow, we can do this tomorrow".. ..bugger that rot..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Synbad, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but if we haven't had a game plan then how much responsibility should the assistants and Sticks take. Would you want Ratten to coach or is it guilt by association.

I would have thought we have a game plan, maybe its not working? And what gameplan should be adopted - Sydney/Adelaide style, West Coast style, Geelong style more kicking? more handballing? what type of formations do we need around the clearances? BTW, we still do pretty well in the clearances in most games even though we don't have a ruckman.

Just curious......

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I love spinach

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....!

great visual. definitely worth trying

Well said but Disagree re remark on Voss

Having heard Voss many times he would be an ideal coach for a young side like the Blues and would definately impose very strong leadership on the young group and demand a very high level of respect.

Also listening to Voss in regards to game plan and set plays he has spoken more in regards to those areas than Pagan has in 5 years

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

An excellent comment. I hope our regular Board Member TC'ers have read your post

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Cheats never prosper (except in the AFL)

Talking Carlton on 3aw tonight.

Wallsy has Pagan in the gun.

Carey defending him to the hilt. Said we had the worst list by far. How did we beat Dogs, PORT,Bummers, all in top 8 then?


Wallsy can't believe that Saddington, Ackland have been named in the squad. He said that we should be playing every draft pick we've had in the last 2 years, for the last 7 games. Sounds like he's going down the PP path.

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I see you watching me watching you.

I nominate this for POW

Spot on BV.......................SPOT ON!

It always seems to be everybody else's fault BUT Pagan's. I just cannot comprehend what is going on.

I haven't heard once, NOT ONCE, the Bulldogs or North complain about their lack of funds, facilities, recruitment team or list.

Laidley, who i don't rate as a good 'tactical' coach, has been IMHO Coach of the Year.

He has driven & inspired a list that is on-par with ours to a top 4 spot on the ladder? All this WITHOUT their gin Full Forward.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME?

It's ALWAYS everybody else's fault, but NEVER DENIS PAGAN.

Sack Kouta, Fev, Lance, Lappin, & Thornton cause their obviously performing below par becuase their greedy bastards who don't care for this club.

I'm starting to thing there was more to Campo leaving than what we've been told.

Might as well sack Gibbs & Murphy now.................


I'm sick of this shit! Jesus Christ! Thank god i'm overseas for 4 weeks! Mind you, i get back for rnd 22 so i MIGHT just make it back to see us winning our 3rd wooden spoon.....................Yippie!

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

They'll learn from all that

In alwyn davey types i presume you mean the flashy players that catch attention (or do you mean 'footballers'?). Risk/Reward is an interesting concept for a footy club. My issue is that we seem to have gone overboard in terms of questionable draft selections (particularly the early round picks). Given the crisis that the club was in (draft penalties, poor onfield performance) we should have had a greater emphasis on footballer types rather than athletic types - Walker, Russell, Hartlett, Bower, Kennedy, Hampson, Grigg, murphy, gibbs have been our PP, 1st and 2nd round selections the past few years.

Of those only murphy and gibbs could be said to be natural footballers and in both instances were widely regarded as the 'standout', no brainer #1 picks. The other 7 all appear to be atheletic selections who, if they turn out will be great but all have had question marks on either footskills, decision making, accountability etc. For mine, we should have picked up at least 3 more 'footballer first' type players rather than athletes with those early draft selections and then, perhaps looked at more athletic players with later selections (which we did anyway). We were not in a position (on and off field) to take on that level of risk with our early round draft selections.

I dont like using hindsight to select the best player post each draft pick but perhaps if we look at the next 3 'footballers' following each draft selection we might have a semi realistic indication of how things might be different.

walker - sylvia, ray, mclean,
russell - thompson (port), bate (demons), monfries (dons)
hartlett - little (hawks), garner (lions), rosa (eagles)
kennedy - drum (freo), higgins (dogs), jones (demons)
bower - stanley (pies), cook (pies), hughes (tigers)
hampson/grigg - jetta (dons), hislop (dons), urqhart (roos)

Not being one that has gone out to watch the kids, I've 'guessed' the next 3 footballers following each of our draft picks over the past few years (exclusions being afl.com profiles that say athletic, 'questionable' talls and players with injury concerns - obviously not perfect and no doubt some draft watchers would point out various players I've included or excluded as being footballers or athletes. However, if took every second player from that list and replaced the athlete with the middle ranked footballer we would have had picked

bate, higgins, hislop rather than russell, kennedy, grigg (should be hampson but I've left him on our list due to the ruck weakness). Ironically we would still have selected a KP forward and 2 mids.

atm bate > russell (and also > kennedy though has an extra year in 'development')
higgins > kennedy (also > russell for mid to mid comparison)
hislop = grigg (not fair to compare someone who has been injured all year)

Its still way too early to assess all the players drafted by hughes (I think each draftee needs 4 years in the system for a fair appraisal) however, I do feel that the club is moving in the right direction by reviewing his selections (the besis/reasoning behind the athletes). It shouldnt have anything to do with the resources that may/may not have been available at the time.

If after the assessment, the club finds him wanting, or his recruiting philosophy didnt adequately take into account where we were as a club (as opposed to the wrong selections at the draft table) then he should be moved on. Imo, we took on board too much risk, and hughes should be moved on (yes, I'd be comfortable with that decision if 10 years down the track every one of those early picks for athletes turns out to be a gem) - though obviously that could easily change if I had more 'facts' rather than the typical 'outsiders' view of the club.

The bulldogs have talented players with great disposal and good running capacity.

WE DONT.

Put it this way, how do you you think Denis would go at the bull dogs and Eade at Carlton with current lists......????

By sacking Denis you are saying to all our players hey fellas it's not you it's the coach. The onus must be on the players not just the coach.

No other coach would have done any better with what we got and sorry to say what we have aint top shelf.

Denis knows football, and most of you dont.

And like sticks said last night the club is not going to make any call from outside pressures hence supporters and media.

So i say the more you guys go on about it the club not going to make the call cause it will come across as they succombed to the pressure.

Let the club make the right decision, none of you are in the inner sanctum, you all behave as if you are but again you aint.

cheerio.

The onus is on the players.
How many players has the club moved on since Pagan arrived?
30? 40?

The players are held accountable every trade period and every end of season.
After 5 years, its time for your mate to be accountable as well Melvey.

Lifes a bitch hey?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

BV, i agree with you however I wouldn't apportion the entire blame for the position we're in solely with Pagan. The entire Football Dept should also share in the blame for our performance with Pagan and needs a complete overhaul.

Hopefully the club after the review will make the right decision. But there is no doubt it is under pressure. Football is an emotional game.

As I mentioned earlier, recruiting, coaching and football administration is all being looked at. The cost cutting undertaken bit far too hard into our ability to do some basics in these areas.

The post above is pretty accurate.