Yeah, a link would be fine, and yes, the club probably would need to give a disclaimer. I mean it's only fair, we provide a link to them.

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true about the "free" bit, GWS, but when quoting, you've always got to give yourself some "wiggle room".

I'd be happy to come and photograph for the club for things like the website, Inside Carlton, and the Merchandise catalogue, most of which are apallingly shot, because Getty, who does it for free, don't give a shit about it. How can I better free, when it would cost me money to do it? Even doing things for cost would be a real thrill to do, to know I'm helping out the Club, but they have just never wanted to know about it. Plus, I'd do it while down there while I'm around for other work in the area, or on hols, so it's not like they'd necessarily have to fork out to get me there.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Essentially all they'd need to do (which could be done now in about three seconds) is have a link on the site called "Forums" where you go and see a list of Carlton relevant forums with perhaps a brief synopsis of each one and some pics etc of the basic interface. End of story.

The change I'm talking about is more fundamental and involves the club harnessing the talents and energy of its supporters in creating a site worth visiting.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

Great stuff everyone.

Agree with most of what you say there GWS.

I think one of the factors that has prevented what you describe happening already (at other clubs) has been the Telstra contract.

It is extremely restrictive on the clubs, in return for that though the contract is very lucrative. (The higher trafficed clubs have been getting well over $300,000 a year from the contract).

My guess is the next contract will be much lower in terms of payouts and some clubs will be tempted to go it alone and try some innovative things released of their shackles.

The club has a huge decision to make with these negotations with Telstra, may have a significant positive of negative impact for many years depending on which decision is made.

I have one proposal for a project that will be presented to someone very high up in the club soon (thanks to TC contacts). This proposal is one small way to engage the online community with the club. Hopefully if the club can see a little of the potential out there they might be more prepared to take a risk with proposals such as you outlined. This particular proposal has next to zero cost for the club but significant potential benefits a factor that may help persuade a conservative club culture.

Trouble is a lot of the benefits for the club are intangible and cannot be measured directly and even those factors that can be measured can only be guessed. Makes selling ideas difficult when the club may prefer to see cold hard solid financial facts in front of them.

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That is underway GWS. I can't really talk to your Gonzo stuff up above as I am not a techy person by skill or by background (I don't know what other sites do, to me Gonzo was just a muppet), but at the moment the only differentiating factor the website has is those supporters who write up stuff. I realise that the Utopian Site is something far better than what we have, but :

* the Club believes its volunteers are a competitive advantage and that the group collectively was a large reason why the Club site was #1 of the AFL sites (ex- Bomber site) until about July
* the Club would like to do more of this to keep hit numbers up, interest up as it all translates to members
* but the focus seems to be on finessing what we have rather than to embrace something new.

As I don't know what other sites have I'd like to ask jarusa to comment on his discussions with the Club about technology usage, links to club sites etc. as he is the only volunteer who knows this sort of stuff. Is the Club open to such future options Jar ? Is it all on hold until the internet rights is being debated?

In terms of linking to forums I don't see how that will lead to a bigger embrace of the Club site. Do you mean that we will all start to volunteer our services if we see a link? Or do you mean that the Club may be able to improve sourcing of specific skills ie techy skills?

I think it could be about assessing the value of one set of fans over the other. Provide a link to TC / TBV / CSC and maybe those 500-1000 posters are happier, they feel part of it. Disparaging comments are made against Coach, Directors, players, the Club; people attempt to rewrite history. But at least we're heard.

On the flip side, this sort of information may upset the 35000 other members and 100000 unique users of the site. You may lose one or two, or 100.

The Club knows that those in Basket 1 won't ever stop being fans as they're fanatics. You, me, are forever wasting work time because our lives are so shallow (: )). But you can't risk losing the other members?

Or it could just be that the Club doesn't have the resources to think about the issue yet.

Have they done the research which backs this up?

Personally, if I was not a member, and visiting the site regularly, it wouldn't encourage me to join based simply on website visits.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

It's a side issue but it's fundamental to the club site being the centre of the carlton universe rather than one space among many. When someone new to the online carlton world wants to engage the club site should be dominant though not at the expense of the others. Essentially having the links in place creates the sense that the club is the central portal through which all things Carlton may be accessed.

When I want to go to a club site of another team I click on an afl.com.bookmark rather than have one for each club. The afl by working as the portal for all the clubs has created a sense that it is in the centre of the football universe. As such I may end up getting distracted by something in afl.com. There's no reason that cfc.com shouldn't be this for the Carlton community.

By the way, the Gonzo reference has nothing to do with tech stuff at all. It has to do with understanding how communities work and how they're many times stronger than hierachies. You build a hierachy - it has a use by date (ask Jack Elliott). Strong communities don't fall - they simply evolve over time to suit the changing needs of their members.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

Yes, they get monthly hit data on each article / section of the site. Player Profiles is the #1 spot, alot of people seem to go in there to look at the players? The Club often fill each of the Contributors in on how many hits they get, and what sort of articles attract attention. During the year, the Next 5 articles that I did with the Bullants writer were in response to strong demand and basically hits were double a normal M&D article.

Basically, the Club thinks the hits we get on our articles (plus Sportal article with the words Fevola or Pagan in them) are high to very high on average and they are keen to keep this sort of input up. It seems the common schmo who spends 10 minutes on the Club website likes M&D, Ghost, FootyGeek much more than the 'Fanatic Fans' that we meet and see on the fansites.

Other clubs like St Kilda get big hits for the Kiddy's section, that's why you've seen it pop up on our site. no idea if it is any good.

In terms of research on website to member financial relationships, no, I don't know about any specific market research on this. There is just an assumption that it helps that I've never thought to question.

I've taken all the ideas in bullet form and sent them to Molsey. I'll leave it up to him, what and if anything, he does with them.

Steve!!!

I'm not a representative of Carlton, all I am is a bloody sap who writes free articles on work time. I'm not qualified to really speak on this topic, just asking questions.

I've called the Club and will direct Steve, the other Steve, to this thread and send the issues paper. The end goal should really be for a TC / Geek presentation to the Board Sub-Committee who have the say on this. That's what I'll try to arrange.

Sorry Molsey, my intention wasn't to put you under pressure, just to inform people it was done.

I think you're missing the crux of my argument molsey.

It's not about the links to the forums. It's not about disparaging comments or otherwise. It's not about any specific web issue. In truth it's probably not even about the web it's just that in the web environment it's glaringly obvious how to go about it.

It's really about placing the Carlton football club in the centre of the Carlton world whilst not being driven by the club.

The club has a link to afl.com and I'll bet there are some things they don't like there so I don't see why they should have a problem with the fan sites. All they are is links to other things Carlton - no other acceptance of responsibility.

Sorry if this all seems a bit obscure - I'm in the middle of the busiest time of the year in here and trying to do 50 things at once while flogging my favourite hobby horse.

Look at it this way. Local footy clubs foster loyalty and interaction in their communities by having sausage sizzles, pie nights, raffles, lamington drives etc etc etc. They are communities and most of these events are not directed from above but organized by small sub-committees that have a direct interest and love for the club. The reason these things work and create income rather than expenses is because those interested are given ownership of the process.

What I'm suggesting isn't essentially much different. The online presence of CFC can be run in a similar manner. You harness the skills of the interested, loyal parties and you let them drive the bus (whilst still mainting ownership and final veto over its direction).

I've been heartened to see the additional contributors on cfc.com this year but it's about 1% improvement on what's possible.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

No I get that bit. I just think the disparaging comments are entirely relevant to the Universe argument. If we're the centre of a Carlton universe and some parts of the Universe are rubbishing Planet Earth then I'd want to disown them.

In the end GWS it's the Club's call so lets see what we can arrange.

GWS, i think you also need to address the reason why people go to the fan sites. I started because I wanted timely news (which wasn't provided by the club web site). I also now love the training news.

There was a need that the club site didn't fill, and the forums filled that need. I'd stick around now if that was provided by the club, because I enjoy the discussion and banter, but if the club site had of addressed my needs, I would have ever have started here.

It would be interesting to see what impact the type of site we all have in mind would have on the forums. I don't think it would impact the sites dramatically, but I do think that it would remove a need so that maybe people didn't commence using the forums...

There's no real way of knowing what effect they might have steve but it's a good point. My guess (and hope) is that as a percentage of the online Carlton community the fan sites would lose a little but that due to the improved quality of the overall offering the total community would also grow and as a result the fan sites would have increased numbers though a smaller share of the total traffic.

I'm still astounded by how many times I've mentioned my involvement in this stuff to other football tragics and they had no idea such things as fan sites existed. Many have been onto the official sites and found them to be as bland as they generally are. That's when they leave and don't come back.

There's an opportunity to keep those people involved across the broader online football community using cfc.com as the portal and an opportunity to turn that increased involvement into further revenue for the club via sponsorship, merchandise, events etc.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

By the way - one other thing the club might like to consider; apparently there are moves afoot to set up a Blues museum/hall of fame type thing at OO. Whilst a worthy project I'm sure for about 10% of the cost of such an endeavour they could do the sort of thing we're talking about here and include the Museum/Hall of Fame as an online world in which Carlton supporters could access an archive of memorabilia and history far greater than any building could hold and which would be accessible to Carlton fans in every corner of the world both abled/disabled, regardless of opening hours etc.

If you want to sell merchandise that'd be a great way to stir the juices.

Add to that a trading room a la eBay for Carlton memorabilia where you could build a marketplace for those who wish to trade everything from footy cards to player jumpers to bags of peanuts from the peanut guy.

Seriously, there are no limits to what you could build and it could all be done very cheaply with donated labour from freaks such as us.

All it takes is some guts and some strong direction from those in charge of such an endeavour.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

There's the clincher in this debate by GWS. Too often, I find myself assuming knowledge about the club is widespread, only to realise when talking to normal people, that after the water-cooler conversations on Monday mornings during the season, most people switch out.

There was a quiz the other night on SEN (the sports radio station in Melbourne), and one question asked who Carlton was going to select in the pre-season draft. I naturally thought it was obvious, but it wasn't until the eighth caller that someone knew Dylan McLaren. It's reasonable to conclude that the vast majority of people, even though they have a strong interest in sport (they're listening to SEN after all), don't follow footy as intently as we do.

The same applies to fan site awareness.

It's a fantastic thought that the on-line communities could exponentially expand membership and participation, with just a simple link on the club's website. The awareness changes would be phenomenal.

This becomes a benefit back to the club. More people talk about the interactive nature of the club, especially amongst teenagers and those younger, and more people see Carlton as a progressive club that listens to its supporters. Simply, we become the 'fashion' club with which people want to be associated.

The basis of all marketing is understanding buyer behaviour. One of the key elements of buyer behaviour with football clubs, is that people select the club they'll support in pre-teen years or adolecence. Those potential recruits are heavily influenced by what they experience on-line. Parents influence their choice to some degree, but the majority (I suspect) follow what their mates think or what they directly experience.

Creating the young supporter base is one of the keys to long-term success, and what is being suggested by GWS and others is not an option, but an imperative.

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"The old believe everything, the middle-aged suspect everything, and the young know everything." Oscar Wilde

Agree again GWS.

On the Blueseum I have a memorabilia section which I have not really developed yet, but the intention was the same.

Have an area where supporters can post pictures and stories of their Carlton memorabilia to share with other supporters.

As an adjunct to this could be an online auction setup (which are easy to set up) which the club runs where Carlton fans come to auction their Carlton memorabilia. After all, it is much better is the club is making money from the transfer of its own history between supporters than Ebay making that money.

Of course the club could also sell merchandise using the Auction model.

It should be doing this on Ebay as well, but thats another story.

Like I said in my reply to your post a page or two back there are ideas being presented to the club right now, hopefully they can look at threads such as this one as well and begin to realise the potential that is out there.

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And what's more, the ideas which have been presented so far are just a small percentage of what's available.

As far as player interviews go, why not tape and podcast a Carlton Internet Radio program with Carlton news, interviews, etc, as well as music, where the "station" could have players be "guest DJ" for an hour or 2 and choose the playlist and explain why they like the song and what it means to them, like the guests on Rage.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.