I can't DISAGREE with this more. MM has sorted out who can play a finals type disciplined style of football and who can't. A lot of players have improved under him. Players who may never of made it under Ratten.

Under Ratten we were downhill skiers. When we had the game on our terms we looked good. Against well structured sides we really struggled.

Our list is old, poor and lacks depth yet most weeks we are competitive. We have no real key forwards and lack quality depth through the midfield. Plus, we have no depth, no one pushing for a spot.

_________________
#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

its all about your planning
both can be ok.. winning and not winning
but you have to have a plan and work to it...
which ever way you choose you need to have a functional plan... we dont have anything.. were relying on either winning or losing

so my point is there are no rights or wrongs as long as you have a system in place to create an environment that leads to success.
you cant have half baked ideas.

for every tanking team thats gets pointed out as successful or not.. i can point to the opposite
for every non tanking teams success i can point to an example illustrating the opposite

we just are a clueless club.. so it wont matter what we do .. its doomed to failure till we learn to lay foundations to succeed... regardless of what route we take

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

_________________
"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

Phys players improved under Ratten and othets didnt its not about individual improvements they mean shit.
The side has gone backwards we are 4 and 7 soon to be 4 and 8
Football is about winning and losing and the facts are we are losing more now than we were 2 years ago.l couldnt give a toss if player x or y has improved.
Has the team improved well the answer to that is a big fat no.
Malthouse has taken this team backwards when he was brought in to take us to the flag

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

which players improved under ratten?

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

We can look at Ratten and MM and it all comes back to a shambolic board who don't appear to be capable of making careful thought out decisions. It's either the champion player or the chequebook name signing.

Doc is right in that wins would give the board a 'get out' just like the Richmond QF win.

Now I don't know if pick 4 will be a big difference compared to pick 8 but the key is that the board and football department aren't able to hide.

_________________
"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

A naive and incredibly unrealistic target. Part of the issue was they believed we were close following that disastrous 2012 'campaign' in which every time we played a decent team we were more or less shit on... except for when supreme individual efforts from a handful of players got us over the line against Collingwood.

_________________
Whatever happened to this club
I wish I understood
We used to be so strong
We used to be so good

If "the champ" had been fit, we could be 7-4 atm... don't agree, I don't give a Ratts

_________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

have we learnt nothing.


anyway we've got the king of development and a million dollar coach,

it's not about win lose, its the process

the process of getting an extension

he hasn't got it by losing and blaming everyone else so he might put some effort into trying to win and see how that pans out

..no you can't synners.. ..there's a world of difference between a successful club that has bottomed out for a year or two, and a shiteful club that has been woeful like we have been.. ..a team with a strong culture, can benefit from bottoming out briefly.. ..a culture likes ours cannot.. ..if we had a winning culture, we Would win games like yesterday.. ..but routinely we lose those games, cos we are scarred.. ..we need to win, we will only improve our culture with on field improvements.. ..this group, right now, has to do it.. ..slightly better kids won't do it for us.. ..but this is just another way of passing the buck.. ..it's always up to somebody else.. ..earlier draft picks are wasted in a losing culture.. ..no quick fixes.. ..none.. ..we need to accept the long, slow, painful road.. ..this is what striving for every win does.. ..not just winning matches, but craving to win every individual contest in the match.. ..winning,, not accepting that a loss will have us winning tomorrow.. ..tomorrow never comes..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

striving for every win happens in the board room as well as the footy field

if the boardroom dont have answers it doesnt matter on the footy field

the culture isnt not germinated on the footy field but in the boardroom.

thats always been my bug bear about this club.... it just filters through and is shwn on the field because thats what we see...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

..have both of what?, winning matches and change at year's end..?.. .... ..if we are good enough to win matches, we don't need 'as much' change.. ..if we need drastic changes, we won't be capable of winning matches.... ..what changes do you think a losing team can make..?.. ..a slightly earlier draft pick is all that is on the cards for us.. ..there is no priority pick.. ..a losing team has no stars to trade out.. ..by not winning these sorts of games, what is the net benefit?, and what is it if we win..?..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

I see where you're coming from Doc and at a normal club, this may succeed.

But we ain't a normal club... the oligarchs are well and truly entrenched and there's no one out there ballys enough (insert Bootsma joke) to remove them.

This season has been well below expected and what do we do... rearrange the deck chairs.

So unless every Carlton supporter is willing to march on Princess Park, seriously unrealistic, we have to accept the board situation and work with what we have.

What we have is a decent coach and a list with holes in it that have forgotten how to win... because most of them we're brought in at a time when is was ok to lose... because we'll smash it with the draft picks.

Well, it's not ok to lose... we have to learn to win and bleed when we lose.

_________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

..if our off field club is crap, an earlier draft pic means jac shite.. ..we of all clubs ought to know this.. ....but it's also just another way of passing the buck.. ..our team doesn't need to try as hard, cos our board doesn't.. ..and around and around we go.. ..somewhere, the circle has to be broken.. ..good culture is grown on every level, yes off field especially in modern times is crucial,, but these players need to tale full responsibility, as does everyone everywhere in the club..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

But we've done losing, and it didn't change a thing. We had more wooden spoons than masterchef, and it didn't change a thing.

Our board is a law unto themselves, and they don't see things the way we do. They are self-serving and selfish.

Win or lose, they aren't going anywhere, they aren't ordering a full review and acting upon said review... so we may as well win and stop worrying about things like the carlton board, because we have no control over them, their decision making or whatever they decide to stand for.

On field culture led by coaching staff and the players can win out over board level disfunction. Plenty of teams have won flags with a chaotic board and off field situation.

West coast was a basket case off the field, and to some degree with ben cousins, on it. they still went back to back GF's and won a flag from it all.

The start of this season it was all, syndey are a rabble, players are fighting, the board is divided over signing franklin, some didn't want him, some did but not at the price they paid ... they were apparently in disarray. Yet here they, if healthy, nobody to stop them.

We should have won the game. Despite some very poor patches in the game, we did more than enough and actually deserved to win. Forget any rational arguments and bigger picture discussions about the club's broader direction and leadership, which I do happen to agree with for the most part.

Footy is, first and foremost, about being fun. Winning is more fun than losing.

We should have won last night.

We didn't.

And it @#$%&! sucks.

_________________
Click here to follow TalkingCarlton on twitter
TalkingCarlton Posting Rules

People are silly; they'll whittle their standards away until they convince themselves that it's reasonable to be the modern day Footscray and unreasonable to expect a premiership at least every 18 years. If we put the onus on ourselves as fans then there's a chance the club will never come good. We should demand standards off and on field but I can't help but believe the two are in direct conflict with each other at the moment.

_________________
Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

:blinded:

_________________
dane's trolling again

That's it. The alternative is peasant logic.

_________________
Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

To be perfectly honest I don't really care about the 2014 season. It's dead.