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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:16 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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AK43 wrote:
If these wealthy and influential backers are willing to kick in $1.2 mill to get rid of Pagan, surely another 200K to allow us to appoint the coach of our choice (Pyke, Mckenna, Longmire, Cresswell, Harvey are 5 names that spring to mind) can be found.


Ok. And if it turns out the club discreetly interviewed all of them but still preferred Mitchell would you be satisfied? or would you still be upset because the process was not transparent (to you that is - I'm sure the interviewees knew what the story was)?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:17 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Denis will be looking forward to the B&F on Friday night!!!!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:19 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Remember Hawthorn a few years back with "the good ol boys" Dermie and Dunstall running the club and boring the current players to tears about their glory days...??

Sounds like deja vu with our version of "the good ol boys" arriving on their white chargers to bore Murphy and Gibbs about how great we were in 1995... :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:22 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Lance3101 wrote:
How will we look if Mitchell is given the Senior Coachs job tonight or within 24 hours as suggested and then the Bullants go out of the VFL finals in straight sets ???


He can blame it on the cattle. He could say it was like dancing with his sister. Or he could just ask not to piss down his back and say it's raining.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:24 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Quote:
Lance3101 wrote:
How will we look if Mitchell is given the Senior Coachs job tonight or within 24 hours as suggested and then the Bullants go out of the VFL finals in straight sets ???


He can blame it on the cattle. He could say it was like dancing with his sister. Or he could just ask not to piss down his back and say it's raining.


He could claim that the blokes in the Blueants haven't been knocking hard enough on the door :oops:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:28 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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As has been established earlier, Pagan's contract is a sunk cost. Whether he remains at Carlton or not, we have the choice of paying it out in a lump sum, or coming to terms.

It's the additional money that is an issue, but we don't seem to be as dire as we were 3 - 6 months ago.

Anyway, carry on. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:28 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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I think the entire process has to be completely transparent to our declining membership. We've just taken a $2 million loan from the AFL and are about to give $1.2 mill of it to someone to leave. To have Mitchell appointed without knowing anything about who else was interviewed, to me reinforces the impression that we are a desperate rabble with no plan, whereas something that is communicated clearly to members, i.e we've spoken to A,B,C and D and decided that Barry Mitchell is the best gives me a lot more confidence. I'm not saying he's not the best person for the job, but it appears he's favored for it as much for his cheap price tag, and friendship with Kernahan and Gleeson, as for his coaching ability.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:30 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Given our financial position, our Coaching priorities should be:

1. Cheap Supreme Coach
2. Cheap Dud
3. Expensive Supreme Coach
4. Expensive Dud

So Mitchell is somewhere between 1 and 2?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:37 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Dukes wrote:
mjonc wrote:
Dukes wrote:
mjonc wrote:
Navy Blue Horse wrote:
If we sack Pagan with money tipped in by Supporters, what have we become?


More financially stable without Pagans contract hanging over our heads.


Yeah real financially stable ... 1.2m PLUS another 0.5m at least.

Paying $1.7m for a rookie coach for 2 years makes a lot of sense. :roll:


Dukes you obviously missed the question asked.

"If we sack Pagan with money tipped in by Supporters, what have we become?"


If they want to tip in the money, why didn't they do it when we were bankrupt. I'm a big believer the administration should appoint and sack coaches and not be reliant on supporters or benefactors influencing this process. although I'm a little biased because as a sporting club president I would never let anyone but the Committee influence the decision that needs to be made.

I suppose my point is that we're putting a lot of faith in a VFL coach who just lost the first final last week after we had dominated the comp all season. It smacks of a Brittain-like appointment and I'm worried that we're not canvassing the best people for the coaching job.


It will be the same people who rumour has it are formultating a ticket in the background. The same people who Elliot constantly says will not tip money in while certain people are on the board. For the sake of saving the club the payout figure, I'm not complaining. It gives us a head start on the budget for next year if rumours are true.

As for Mitchell, the players know what they are getting and from reliable sources on this forum they love him and communicate with him very well, if we were to bring in another outside coach my fear would be that coach would try to instigate another new regime that may or may not work with the playing roster.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:41 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Assuming the rumours are true and the board is heavily against Pagan continuing as Coach (and apparently the majority of them are) then even if Pagan was to continue his position becomes a bit untenable. This is because he will go on with the knowledge that a significant proportion of the board don't want him there, so that might force him to let bygones be bygones and resign.

The board needs to be clear about what reasons they have for wanting a new Coach in this process. If they are banking on the club suddenly becoming more successful next season as a result of a new coach, then well I think thats laughable. IMO if Pagan is replaced, then I don't believe we will be any more successful next season. We will be in the bottom three or four on the ladder at best with or without Pagan next Season. I also cannot see the membership improving that significantly just because a new coach is appointed. The members and supporters realise the limits of our list and also understand with the team being so young more time is needed for their development before we will be realistically pushing for finals footy again.

I agree with some of the sentiments of posters here in that there needs to be change with coaching staff and at board level. However this needs to be done with a clear plan in mind and not just change for changes sake....


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:42 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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It could just as well be Brittain all over again, although Mitchell is a lot more of a disciplinarian.

Regardless it could backfire, plus there's also a question mark over the depth of his tactical nous at the moment.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:43 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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jimmae wrote:
As has been established earlier, Pagan's contract is a sunk cost. Whether he remains at Carlton or not, we have the choice of paying it out in a lump sum, or coming to terms.

It's the additional money that is an issue, but we don't seem to be as dire as we were 3 - 6 months ago.

Anyway, carry on. :)


The issue would also be whether the payment is up front or over the contracted period. Obviously cashflow would then become a problem again.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:43 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Molly wrote:
Quote:
Lance3101 wrote:
How will we look if Mitchell is given the Senior Coachs job tonight or within 24 hours as suggested and then the Bullants go out of the VFL finals in straight sets ???


He can blame it on the cattle. He could say it was like dancing with his sister. Or he could just ask not to piss down his back and say it's raining.


He could claim that the blokes in the Blueants haven't been knocking hard enough on the door :oops:


Mitchell's selections in the 2006 'Super Draft' based on 2006 season

P1 - Diggers Morell
PP17 - Big Shorts Harford
P19 - Traded for Campo

Captain - Teaguey
Vice - Prenda

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:47 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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The Duke wrote:
Molly wrote:
Quote:
Lance3101 wrote:
How will we look if Mitchell is given the Senior Coachs job tonight or within 24 hours as suggested and then the Bullants go out of the VFL finals in straight sets ???


He can blame it on the cattle. He could say it was like dancing with his sister. Or he could just ask not to piss down his back and say it's raining.


He could claim that the blokes in the Blueants haven't been knocking hard enough on the door :oops:


Mitchell's selections in the 2006 'Super Draft' based on 2006 season

P1 - Diggers Morell
PP17 - Big Shorts Harford
P19 - Traded for Campo

Captain - Teaguey
Vice - Prenda


You missed Franchina :-D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:50 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:48 am
Posts: 2891
AK43 wrote:
I think the entire process has to be completely transparent to our declining membership. We've just taken a $2 million loan from the AFL and are about to give $1.2 mill of it to someone to leave. To have Mitchell appointed without knowing anything about who else was interviewed, to me reinforces the impression that we are a desperate rabble with no plan, whereas something that is communicated clearly to members, i.e we've spoken to A,B,C and D and decided that Barry Mitchell is the best gives me a lot more confidence. I'm not saying he's not the best person for the job, but it appears he's favored for it as much for his cheap price tag, and friendship with Kernahan and Gleeson, as for his coaching ability.


See I don't know if they could actually do that just to make you feel better. They could:

1) outline the rationale behind the decision to sack Denis

2) explain how it is being financed and what the implications for the clubs bottom line are (and why the club sees these as a justifiable cost)

3) Note that a proper (if discrete) process was carried out to select the new coach, and that a number of other candidates were interviewed.

But I doubt the club could actually name the other applicants. It would be a breach of their privacy. They might be heir apparent at another club, and knowing they were shopping around may prejudice their future chances at their current club.

Think about any process to replace a coach. Sometimes clubs make it known they'd like to interview a certain person, sometimes certain people make it known they'd like (or expect) to be interviewed. Sometimes candiates make it known that they were interviewed. But you don't hear the club, having made the decision, publicising who the other applicants were. Oh the names come out eventually - the whole AFL leaks like a sieve. But I doubt you would get the appointing club listing them purely for supporters peace of mind.


Last edited by nightcrawler on Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:52 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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mjonc wrote:
jimmae wrote:
As has been established earlier, Pagan's contract is a sunk cost. Whether he remains at Carlton or not, we have the choice of paying it out in a lump sum, or coming to terms.

It's the additional money that is an issue, but we don't seem to be as dire as we were 3 - 6 months ago.

Anyway, carry on. :)


The issue would also be whether the payment is up front or over the contracted period. Obviously cashflow would then become a problem again.

Precisely, but I doubt Pagan would be shocked if we asked to pay it out over the original term specified in the contract. :)

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Last edited by jimmae on Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:52 pm 
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Rod McGregor
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BluesRockMyWorld wrote:
Assuming the rumours are true and the board is heavily against Pagan continuing as Coach (and apparently the majority of them are) then even if Pagan was to continue his position becomes a bit untenable. This is because he will go on with the knowledge that a significant proportion of the board don't want him there, so that might force him to let bygones be bygones and resign.

The board needs to be clear about what reasons they have for wanting a new Coach in this process. If they are banking on the club suddenly becoming more successful next season as a result of a new coach, then well I think thats laughable. IMO if Pagan is replaced, then I don't believe we will be any more successful next season. We will be in the bottom three or four on the ladder at best with or without Pagan next Season. I also cannot see the membership improving that significantly just because a new coach is appointed. The members and supporters realise the limits of our list and also understand with the team being so young more time is needed for their development before we will be realistically pushing for finals footy again.

I agree with some of the sentiments of posters here in that there needs to be change with coaching staff and at board level. However this needs to be done with a clear plan in mind and not just change for changes sake....


Spot On. Great Post


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:20 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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jimmae wrote:
It could just as well be Brittain all over again, although Mitchell is a lot more of a disciplinarian.

Regardless it could backfire, plus there's also a question mark over the depth of his tactical nous at the moment.





You're seriously questioning Mitchells tactical nous when you've previously defended Pagans?
You're a bag of laughs Jimbob! :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:22 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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what I want to know is who is driving this?

and is it the same people that will (please, please) be driving the change at Board level?

and will this mean BV will be a happy man again?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:25 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Blue Vain wrote:
You're a bag of laughs Jimbob! :lol:


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