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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:36 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17517
dannyboy wrote:
I'd only set one criteria, going hard at any aspect you undertake on the field, tackling, shepherding, running, chasing, marking, blocking, go as hard as you can, ditto at training. Do that you keep playing, fail to do that – out. Course it means we might end up with a team of about 10.


I agree Danny but the key is to build an environment where those aspects are celebrated and rewarded within the playing group. They should be driven by a want to contribute, celebrate and to feel valued for those efforts. Not to be driven by a fear of losing your spot in the team.
That environment is created by the coach and reinforced by the leaders. Watch Melbourne and Richmond play. The players want ownership of the team environment. They celebrate blocks, shepherds, smokers, chases etc. They know having that as your team DNA creates success and you will be recognised for hard work more than supplying the icing to the cake.
We believe goals and offensive actions are our valued outcomes. That creates selfishness.

The coach is responsible. He sets the expectations, the standards and builds the culture. It's then his responsibility to get buy in from the players and the coaching panel. Teagues philosophies are "letting the players play", "bringing their strengths" and playing attractive footy.
How many players would think defensive footy is their strength? How many would think running defensively is "attractive footy"? It's motherhood statements that give a warm feeling but lack any detail. He has a couple of months to totally reinvent himself, the team and the culture of he can walk out the door as far as I'm concerned.
It's not a tweak. It's a massive change of approach. His problem is, the players are wedded to his initial ideas. Can he retain credibility with the group if he changes significantly? I have my doubts

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:05 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 3280
Teddy Hopkins wrote:
bluechampion wrote:
This is what I'd like to see for this match (and possibly for about the next four weeks):

FB: Parks - Jones - Plowman
HB: Saad - Weitering - Williams
C: SPS - Stocker - O'Brien
HF: Martin - Silvagni - Fisher
FF: TDK - McKay - Owies
R: Pittonet - Walsh - Dow
INT: Cripps - Betts - Fogarty - Honey
Sub: Murphy

The backline has a month of settled personnel before we look to introduce Kemp (assuming he gets through a solid month in the VFL). I like Parks hardness at the man, so I'd like to see him learning his craft in the seniors.
Give O'Brien a month on the wing. He has to show something or he loses his place to Boyd (this assumes Boyd gets a month in the VFL and performs well). Same with SPS, but SPS gets more time at half-forward as part of the on-ball rotations. O'Brien gets a wing to himself for a month. Back him in.
Regularly rotate through the centre square: Play SPS, Stocker, Martin, Fisher, Walsh, Dow, Docherty and Fogarty there over the course of the month. Mix up the combinations. Every centre bounce, put in a different combo. Make us unpredictable.
Start Cripps as the deepest forward. He can rotate onto the ball after centre bounces. We get scored on from centre clearances too often, and too much of that is his physical inability to defend. So he spends a month outside the square. I'd be tempted to give him a spell, but I just can't bring myself to drop him...
I'm kinda reluctant to play both rucks, but you can't go into a game with just one - especially next week with Mumford looking to injure his opponent at every opportunity. But, if we were to go in with one ruck, I'd almost like to see how Cripps goes as an around-the-ground ruck / mid alongside TDK.
The forwards stay much the same... Hopefully in a month C. Curnow has a fortnight of VFL under his belt or we've played Kemp forward some of the time and they can possibly come in.
Doc and Curnow are out, which is harsh as they've both played some okay footy this season. But there's only room for 22 blokes.
Ask Murphy who he wants to play his 300th against, and nurse him though as the sub. He has 5 games to get there. We have 10 games. We can work it out. Docherty is the other obvious candidate for sub.


You have Docherty in and out of the team. :smile:

Anyway he has played well enough to keep. Leave Fogarty out, he has had a good run but shown little recently.

It is harsh on Curnow but if you look to the future a reasoned out.


Fixed. (I keep changing my mind.)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:12 pm 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 898
Ed Curnow stays in, no question. Not only does he set standards for workrate he is capable of stopping opposition mids which no-one else in the team has proven. Don't expect him to be a star halfback, or half forward or to be our silk ball user through the mids, but his role is invaluable and his example what we want our youngsters to emulate.

Murphy needs to be told he gets a game if and only if he is demonstrably busting a gut. Do that and I don't mind carrying him to the 300 games. Don't and he can wind up short. There is no can't - effort is the one thing any player can bring and too many are not. That should be message number one to the team and this is Murph's chance to secure his 300 gamer status and deserve it.

Don't mind the idea of telling O'Brien that as long as he provides the effort and follows the non-negotiables set for him he has a month guaranteed - indeed others could be told the same if we have decided it is time to prioritise development and list management over picking the strongest 22 each week. Dow and Stocker given time in the middle and SPS mid/fwd rotation. Same deal, give full on effort, do the non-negotiables and you have a month locked in. Kemp, Charlie Curnow, Williamson, McGovern and possibly Boyd come into the picture at that time depending on fitness and performance.

Love the effort of Cottrell and Parks but not sure their performance warrants selection at the moment. Park's chance was while Plowman was out and the match committee chose not to select him (and on 2s form that's fair enough).

Kennedy as a third tall forward capable of switching into midfield when Cripps needs a rest - or vice versa if you want to ease load on Crippa - gives him a chance to save his career. Honey deserves a decent shot at some stage. Would like to see Durdin, Ramsay and maybe Carroll given a taste if their form deserves it and others don't, but I am talking about towards the end of the season. Oscar McDonald if he gets back and shows 2s form should be given a look in, just to see what he's got. Levi needs to show his body is right - it may just simply be shot - but if he can then Pitto might be in trouble. At this stage we need to keep Pitto and TDK both in to share the ruck load, but if Levi or maybe even Oscar could provide a decent relief ruck to TDK as main ruck then Pitto may be in the 2s.

At the very least Levi deserves a send-off game.

Williamson is a disappointment he just isn't showing his wares in the 2s. I think he needs to be moved onto the wing in the 2s and given the chance to be in the mix in a month or so.

To be having this discussion at this stage of the season is a disgraceful reflection in another wasted year.


Last edited by ianh on Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:12 pm 
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Adrian Gallagher

Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:49 pm
Posts: 52
Blue Vain wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
I'd only set one criteria, going hard at any aspect you undertake on the field, tackling, shepherding, running, chasing, marking, blocking, go as hard as you can, ditto at training. Do that you keep playing, fail to do that – out. Course it means we might end up with a team of about 10.


I agree Danny but the key is to build an environment where those aspects are celebrated and rewarded within the playing group. They should be driven by a want to contribute, celebrate and to feel valued for those efforts. Not to be driven by a fear of losing your spot in the team.
That environment is created by the coach and reinforced by the leaders. Watch Melbourne and Richmond play. The players want ownership of the team environment. They celebrate blocks, shepherds, smokers, chases etc. They know having that as your team DNA creates success and you will be recognised for hard work more than supplying the icing to the cake.
We believe goals and offensive actions are our valued outcomes. That creates selfishness.

The coach is responsible. He sets the expectations, the standards and builds the culture. It's then his responsibility to get buy in from the players and the coaching panel. Teagues philosophies are "letting the players play", "bringing their strengths" and playing attractive footy.
How many players would think defensive footy is their strength? How many would think running defensively is "attractive footy"? It's motherhood statements that give a warm feeling but lack any detail. He has a couple of months to totally reinvent himself, the team and the culture of he can walk out the door as far as I'm concerned.
It's not a tweak. It's a massive change of approach. His problem is, the players are wedded to his initial ideas. Can he retain credibility with the group if he changes significantly? I have my doubts


BV, I love this post- couldn't help myself, teams like Melbourne and Richmond going full-on Robbie McGhie style :smoking: That's what I want to see, players having darts at half time and 3/4 time with darts out of their mouths :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:16 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:51 pm
Posts: 546
ok you have named a different looking team ,what about the game plan surely no more long bombs into our F50


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:54 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20208
Location: North of the border
jamespul65 wrote:
ok you have named a different looking team ,what about the game plan surely no more long bombs into our F50
Long bombs to the F50 are fine if you have Forward 1 out.
Our problem is we keep bringing players to the contest. They all lead or head to the same spot bringing their opponents with them . Then if the ball lands in the opponents hands we commit 3 to the tackle, I presume hoping for the 1 in a billion chance we get rewarded a free in front of goal. What eventuates is they drop it throw it knock it to the players that are now loose, they get an overlap and the ball sail freely to the other end of the ground.

When they bomb they shouldn't bomb to a pack and they shouldn't create a bigger pack.

It's school yard stuff but it means that you have to sacrifice your game for the good of the team.

You watch McGovern he never brings his opponents to the contest

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:12 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10059
redback wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Ed Curnow is one of my first 5 selected. He's our one accountable midfielder, in our 3 best runners, one of 3 hardest workers and he sets the standard for 20 other blokes.
When SPS works half as hard as Ed or when O'Brien goes at the ball half as hard as Ed, I'd consider replacing him.
I'm all for giving youngsters a game but lets make them give a half arsed effort to earn them. SPS, O'Brien and Honey have opportunities to earn a spot. Let's see them do it.
Selection integrity applies to the players as well. If you want a game, show us. Don't expect it to be gifted to you.


I love ED he busts his guts every week he would be my first pick every week.

I wouldn't like to say he sets the standard for the others because if he does that standard is pretty low.

I would say if those with a greater talent than Ed worked to his standards we would be a better side.


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Agree with this Sydney.
How about we pick players that can dispose of the ball properly and then make the coaching staff earn their money by setting some non negotiable standards to drive us forward.
If we keep playing the Murphys and Curnows we will be cactus for a long time to come.


I’m with you as well but I have kept him in for now, as I want to see SPS, OB, Dow, Setterfield, etc. after the break, led by Crippa and Doc, set this standard and them following the non-negotiable. Then we can move Ed along.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:39 pm 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 898
So for this next game where do we go.

My view is the 22 as follows:

Newman/Jones/Plowman
Saad/Weitering/Williams
Docherty/Cripps/Walsh
Fisher/Silvagni/Martin
De Koning/McKay/Owies
Pittonet/E Curnow/Dow
Betts/Fogarty/Setterfield/Stocker
EMERGS Kennedy/Murphy/O'Brien/SPS - whichever one of them shows they want the gig most gets the medi-sub role - default Murphy.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:51 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:41 pm
Posts: 4538
Waterman wrote:
I no it will never happen or can’t happen but , I would like to see the club say to all players from Crippa and Doc down, for the rest of the year everyone is on a performance based pay rate . Give every player a list of individual kpi’s they need to make along with team rules that are non negotiable. Failure to meet them and your pay will be dropped accordingly. Pretty sure that lift intensity and performance.
Agree... But it will have more of an effect if they post their performance numbers on insta....


'Insta' more important apparently

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:52 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 1890
redback wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Ed Curnow is one of my first 5 selected. He's our one accountable midfielder, in our 3 best runners, one of 3 hardest workers and he sets the standard for 20 other blokes.
When SPS works half as hard as Ed or when O'Brien goes at the ball half as hard as Ed, I'd consider replacing him.
I'm all for giving youngsters a game but lets make them give a half arsed effort to earn them. SPS, O'Brien and Honey have opportunities to earn a spot. Let's see them do it.
Selection integrity applies to the players as well. If you want a game, show us. Don't expect it to be gifted to you.


I love ED he busts his guts every week he would be my first pick every week.

I wouldn't like to say he sets the standard for the others because if he does that standard is pretty low.

I would say if those with a greater talent than Ed worked to his standards we would be a better side.


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Agree with this Sydney.
How about we pick players that can dispose of the ball properly and then make the coaching staff earn their money by setting some non negotiable standards to drive us forward.
If we keep playing the Murphys and Curnows we will be cactus for a long time to come.


We are going nowhere if Curnow remains a key midfielder in our team.

We all appreciate his efforts and desire to help the team. However, he is a plodder and always has been. Fine if you want to be a middling team.

Unfortunately, we have been unable to build a strong midfield core than runs to about 7-8 players, where a player like Curnow is your 6-8th best midfielder.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:07 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:35 pm
Posts: 20076
Blue Vain wrote:
Ed Curnow is one of my first 5 selected. He's our one accountable midfielder, in our 3 best runners, one of 3 hardest workers and he sets the standard for 20 other blokes.
When SPS works half as hard as Ed or when O'Brien goes at the ball half as hard as Ed, I'd consider replacing him.
I'm all for giving youngsters a game but lets make them give a half arsed effort to earn them. SPS, O'Brien and Honey have opportunities to earn a spot. Let's see them do it.
Selection integrity applies to the players as well. If you want a game, show us. Don't expect it to be gifted to you.


What does Honey and Ramsay need to do? Both playing well in the VFL, Ramsay being stuffed around in many positions, both far better than the turnover king LoB and based on his last game Samo.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:10 pm 
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Banned

Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:55 pm
Posts: 2333
The Normal One wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Ed Curnow is one of my first 5 selected. He's our one accountable midfielder, in our 3 best runners, one of 3 hardest workers and he sets the standard for 20 other blokes.
When SPS works half as hard as Ed or when O'Brien goes at the ball half as hard as Ed, I'd consider replacing him.
I'm all for giving youngsters a game but lets make them give a half arsed effort to earn them. SPS, O'Brien and Honey have opportunities to earn a spot. Let's see them do it.
Selection integrity applies to the players as well. If you want a game, show us. Don't expect it to be gifted to you.


What does Honey and Ramsay need to do? Both playing well in the VFL, Ramsay being stuffed around in many positions, both far better than the turnover king LoB and based on his last game Samo.


Its a surprise Honey hasnt been used earlier but would like him to be rewarded for effort.

Ramsay going okay will get pushed off the ball too easily should be no rush. Needs to build his body and dominate a game or two.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:21 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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Would have a better chance if our reserves could play like all the other interstate teams reserves can. Seems like a totally fair system.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:31 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8166
Location: Australia
WOW wrote:
redback wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Ed Curnow is one of my first 5 selected. He's our one accountable midfielder, in our 3 best runners, one of 3 hardest workers and he sets the standard for 20 other blokes.
When SPS works half as hard as Ed or when O'Brien goes at the ball half as hard as Ed, I'd consider replacing him.
I'm all for giving youngsters a game but lets make them give a half arsed effort to earn them. SPS, O'Brien and Honey have opportunities to earn a spot. Let's see them do it.
Selection integrity applies to the players as well. If you want a game, show us. Don't expect it to be gifted to you.


I love ED he busts his guts every week he would be my first pick every week.

I wouldn't like to say he sets the standard for the others because if he does that standard is pretty low.

I would say if those with a greater talent than Ed worked to his standards we would be a better side.


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Agree with this Sydney.
How about we pick players that can dispose of the ball properly and then make the coaching staff earn their money by setting some non negotiable standards to drive us forward.
If we keep playing the Murphys and Curnows we will be cactus for a long time to come.


We are going nowhere if Curnow remains a key midfielder in our team.

We all appreciate his efforts and desire to help the team. However, he is a plodder and always has been. Fine if you want to be a middling team.

Unfortunately, we have been unable to build a strong midfield core than runs to about 7-8 players, where a player like Curnow is your 6-8th best midfielder.


I disagree, what we need is a system that works for the entire 18, if we have that it doesn’t matter if we have Curnow, or Cripps or Dow in the middle, we will start winning. And Ed is the most likely of all our mids (apart from Walsh) to execute such a system.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:22 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 7749
Blue Vain wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
I'd only set one criteria, going hard at any aspect you undertake on the field, tackling, shepherding, running, chasing, marking, blocking, go as hard as you can, ditto at training. Do that you keep playing, fail to do that – out. Course it means we might end up with a team of about 10.


I agree Danny but the key is to build an environment where those aspects are celebrated and rewarded within the playing group. They should be driven by a want to contribute, celebrate and to feel valued for those efforts. Not to be driven by a fear of losing your spot in the team.
That environment is created by the coach and reinforced by the leaders. Watch Melbourne and Richmond play. The players want ownership of the team environment. They celebrate blocks, shepherds, smokers, chases etc. They know having that as your team DNA creates success and you will be recognised for hard work more than supplying the icing to the cake.
We believe goals and offensive actions are our valued outcomes. That creates selfishness.

The coach is responsible. He sets the expectations, the standards and builds the culture. It's then his responsibility to get buy in from the players and the coaching panel. Teagues philosophies are "letting the players play", "bringing their strengths" and playing attractive footy.
How many players would think defensive footy is their strength? How many would think running defensively is "attractive footy"? It's motherhood statements that give a warm feeling but lack any detail. He has a couple of months to totally reinvent himself, the team and the culture of he can walk out the door as far as I'm concerned.
It's not a tweak. It's a massive change of approach. His problem is, the players are wedded to his initial ideas. Can he retain credibility with the group if he changes significantly? I have my doubts


Players actually set the standard and build the culture. Peer pressure is they key to build culture. Coach can only encourage it. The fact the culture hasn't changed under 5 coaches this century is testimony to that. Motivation only comes from within. Psychology 101. If the players don't want it badly enough, don't have the drive and hunger to succeed and only happy to play for the pay cheque then the side won't be successful. The coach then may as well be talking to a brick well. Can tell you that from experience.

Think his spray at half time against Hawthorn made it clear he wanted the side to defend as a unit. Worked that day but the players need the motivation to do it each week like their lives depended on it but sadly they don't seem to want it badly enough to do it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:14 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Location: Conservative Brisbane :O(
Really need someone to stand up to Mumford putting the hurt on. Mumford is obviously in the mood for it and would be getting a little excited given he's smashed us about in recent games.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:30 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 2434
Sydney Blue wrote:
jamespul65 wrote:
ok you have named a different looking team ,what about the game plan surely no more long bombs into our F50
Long bombs to the F50 are fine if you have Forward 1 out.
Our problem is we keep bringing players to the contest. They all lead or head to the same spot bringing their opponents with them . Then if the ball lands in the opponents hands we commit 3 to the tackle, I presume hoping for the 1 in a billion chance we get rewarded a free in front of goal. What eventuates is they drop it throw it knock it to the players that are now loose, they get an overlap and the ball sail freely to the other end of the ground.

When they bomb they shouldn't bomb to a pack and they shouldn't create a bigger pack.

It's school yard stuff but it means that you have to sacrifice your game for the good of the team.

You watch McGovern he never brings his opponents to the contest

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This drives me batty! We need to be aggressive and uncompromising but we also need to understand our roles and have awareness: Don't all tackle the same bloke! One of you tackle him and make it stick. A similar problem in our forward line - several key forwards leading to the same spot at the same time and competing against each other. WORK AS A TEAM!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:56 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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jezzarules wrote:
Teague effectively back into caretaker mode so needs to get the boys playing with gay abandon like it's 2019


NTTAWWT


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:50 am 
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Rod Ashman
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I don't see how any Carlton side with O'Brien in it sets the standard for effort. He has not shown anything in the VFL so why give him a game. When he runs with the flight of the ball into oncoming players , then and only then will he be ready.
Dow and Owies should be automatic INs


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:45 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Players setting standards and culture ? perhaps,but it starts with the coach.He is the one who sets the tone and drives things...........perfect opportunity against GWS.........Roo's (who are a shell of a side ) had 'em on the ropes and really should have beat 'em.............Mate,if you can't motivate and inspire the side to a win against this mob you are in the wrong caper...........yeah,i agree to a point that is up to the players 'emselves to fire up but a coach has got to come the heavy hand also and now is the time no ifs or butts.

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