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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:22 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 1531
I also am optimistic while simultaneously being disappointed in our progress this year.
I thought we would be better this year BUT if I step back from the eye rolling moments during games and at the siren...

We are clearly carrying a few players who may develop but currently a liability (e.g. Cottrell).
We have 4-5 players currently just getting an opportunity due to injury (e.g. Setterfield, Gibbons, Pittonet).
We have a couple who are past it (e.g. Murphy, Casboult and Eddie although Eddie is doing well at the moment but obvs won't be there next year...)
And we have a structural weakness defensively.

And yet, we are still in most games and only a few goals off the pace.
If we can get Fisher, Marchbank, Charlie, Martin, McGovern etc on the park.
And introduce the likes of Honey, Philp, Kemp.
Maybe lift Dow and SPS to the required level.
And bring in another gun mid FA.

.... we should be able to lift into top bracket reasonably quickly.
AND, in the meantime, we are getting the kind of harsh lessons that the Tigers endured before their sustained success and Melbourne has endured over the past 4 years which should hold us in good stead for the longer term.
And, similar to Melbourne and possibly StKilda, rising up usually isn't a straight near-vertical line up....

PS. I wonder whether we already do have a replacement for Jones: McGovern or JSOS (the other playing 3rd tall forward...)??


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:21 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Posts: 15745
Location: Bondi Beach
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/04/vulnerable-eagles-stand-between-carlton-and-the-fixture-opening-up/

Quote:
The Blues sit 13th on the ladder with four wins at the halfway point of the season, but as Bob Murphy points out: “the draw does open up for them” after the bye.

Close losses to Sydney, Collingwood, Brisbane and the Bulldogs will haunt Carlton, but following their bye and a tough away clash with GWS, the draw does indeed open up.

From Round 15 onwards they play Adelaide, Fremantle, Geelong, Collingwood, North Melbourne, St Kilda, Gold Coast, Port Adelaide and GWS.

If they lose to this Eagles side it likely won’t matter, but they could go in favourites against all-but the Cats and Power in the run home if things break right.


Half way mark.

Tigers on 8th spot with 6 wins. So I assume 12 wins will be the target to make the Final 8. Percentage would count a lot.

We've won 4 and need another 8 wins with only 11 games remaining. Our percentage sits at 93.9%. Tigers sits at 102%.

83 points differential in our percentage. Win 8 games by 20 points each and we make that up easily, including Eagles % advantage over us.

West Coast look most vulnerable on 6 wins but a better percentage, and the Swans after them with 7 wins

Anything can happen, but if Carlton are to get there they can't afford to lose this week, or next week or the week after.... and hope we only drop the Port and cats games, giving us 13 wins.

Tough ask. But its possible.

Plowman back next week
Curnow possibly back after games against Eagles, Giants, Adeliade and Freo, before Cats game.

After that we have games against Coll, North, Saints, GCS before the Port game.

Lets see if Teague have solved our defensive issue

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:38 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Posts: 1229
17th Premiership wrote:
I also am optimistic while simultaneously being disappointed in our progress this year.
I thought we would be better this year BUT if I step back from the eye rolling moments during games and at the siren...

We are clearly carrying a few players who may develop but currently a liability (e.g. Cottrell).
We have 4-5 players currently just getting an opportunity due to injury (e.g. Setterfield, Gibbons, Pittonet).
We have a couple who are past it (e.g. Murphy, Casboult and Eddie although Eddie is doing well at the moment but obvs won't be there next year...)
And we have a structural weakness defensively.

And yet, we are still in most games and only a few goals off the pace.
If we can get Fisher, Marchbank, Charlie, Martin, McGovern etc on the park.
And introduce the likes of Honey, Philp, Kemp.
Maybe lift Dow and SPS to the required level.
And bring in another gun mid FA.

.... we should be able to lift into top bracket reasonably quickly.
AND, in the meantime, we are getting the kind of harsh lessons that the Tigers endured before their sustained success and Melbourne has endured over the past 4 years which should hold us in good stead for the longer term.
And, similar to Melbourne and possibly StKilda, rising up usually isn't a straight near-vertical line up....

PS. I wonder whether we already do have a replacement for Jones: McGovern or JSOS (the other playing 3rd tall forward...)??


I agree with the McGovern suggestion. Not sure about JSOS as a defender being not quick off the mark but reads the play well. I much prefer him as the third tall in the forward line as he has great goal smarts and that is where he is dangerous. Has shown also that he can be a lock down midfielder to replace Ed.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:58 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 1469
I like the way Melbourne is playing. Good blend of defence and attack. They also have good role players. Reminds me of Richmond in terms of its attack on the ball.

That’s where we need to get to, particularly with setting up forward attacks from the half back line. Unfortunately we don’t have the cohesion and our bottom 4 - 6 players are not good enough.

Although, our top 6 - 8 players are very good, so there is something to continue building around. It may take another 2 years.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:57 am 
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formerly King Kenny
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bondiblue wrote:
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/04/vulnerable-eagles-stand-between-carlton-and-the-fixture-opening-up/

Quote:
The Blues sit 13th on the ladder with four wins at the halfway point of the season, but as Bob Murphy points out: “the draw does open up for them” after the bye.

Close losses to Sydney, Collingwood, Brisbane and the Bulldogs will haunt Carlton, but following their bye and a tough away clash with GWS, the draw does indeed open up.

From Round 15 onwards they play Adelaide, Fremantle, Geelong, Collingwood, North Melbourne, St Kilda, Gold Coast, Port Adelaide and GWS.

If they lose to this Eagles side it likely won’t matter, but they could go in favourites against all-but the Cats and Power in the run home if things break right.


Half way mark.

Tigers on 8th spot with 6 wins. So I assume 12 wins will be the target to make the Final 8. Percentage would count a lot.

We've won 4 and need another 8 wins with only 11 games remaining. Our percentage sits at 93.9%. Tigers sits at 102%.

83 points differential in our percentage. Win 8 games by 20 points each and we make that up easily, including Eagles % advantage over us.

West Coast look most vulnerable on 6 wins but a better percentage, and the Swans after them with 7 wins

Anything can happen, but if Carlton are to get there they can't afford to lose this week, or next week or the week after.... and hope we only drop the Port and cats games, giving us 13 wins.

Tough ask. But its possible.

Plowman back next week
Curnow possibly back after games against Eagles, Giants, Adeliade and Freo, before Cats game.

After that we have games against Coll, North, Saints, GCS before the Port game.

Lets see if Teague have solved our defensive issue


I posted something similar in the wrong thread.

Totally agree top 8 is still possible.

I had us 5-7 after 12 rounds, so today is it. Lose and start playing some kids to give them a taste, and retire a few older players early.

Plenty of 8pt games. GWS twice, Saints, Pies, Freo and all must win. 6-7 is very achievable if we want it bad enough.

How we adapt defensively in the second half of the year is pivotal to making it. At least we look like having a decent run with injuries to help out too.

I’m expecting Kemp to be playing shortly, add Curnow, Martin and Fisher fit again, things are looking up.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:31 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 15745
Location: Bondi Beach
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/05/brownlow-medallist-names-side-who-can-challenge-for-the-flag-next-year/

So injuries do hinder aspiring Finalists. Admitedly the Giants have built a list of Class Players from huge Draft Concessions from scratch since 2011 Draft

Whereas Carlton started their complete rebuild with only class players Cripps and Docherty to build from, plus workhorse Curnow, Jones and Murphy since 2015 Draft.


Quote:
Brownlow medallist Gerard Healy is incredibly bullish about GWS’ chances in the medium term, saying they can win the flag in 2022.

The Giants lost the first three games of the current season, but have recovered somewhat to sit just one win outside of the top eight.

Leon Cameron’s side has been ravaged by injury this year, with the likes of captain Stephen Coniglio, Toby Greene and Phil Davis all on the sidelines.

Healy said the Giants had “so much upside” in the coming months, saying he was impressed by the way they were playing despite missing several big names through injury.

“I think they can challenge for the flag next year,” he said on AFL Nation.

“I think they are one of the really talented sides in the competition, their injury list is huge at the present time and they’re still uncovering players.


GWS injured player are Coniglio (Mid), Davis (FB), Greene (HF), DeBoar (Tag), Hogan (FF), Keefe (CHB), Perryman (HF) Daniels (HB)

Carlton injured players are C.Curnow (CHF), Marchbank,(BP) Plowman (BP), Cuningham (MId), McGovern (HF) , whilst others sidelined most of this year include DeKoning (ruck), Silvagni (HF), Fisher (FP), Martin (HF), Newman (HB), McDonals (Utility), let alone those playing injured Williams, Docherty, Saad, Levi, Silvagni, Murphy...

Things on the injury front have been and are really bad, but with a few players to come back, Charlie, Fisher, Gov, Plowman, we may see Carlton mentioned in the same vein as GWS.

Healy and Kind think we have the list to play Finals, its not injury, but a tweak with our defensive set ups that will see us rise. So do I.

Tweak it Teague !!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:42 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 15745
Location: Bondi Beach
carntheblues wrote:
17th Premiership wrote:
I also am optimistic while simultaneously being disappointed in our progress this year.
I thought we would be better this year BUT if I step back from the eye rolling moments during games and at the siren...

We are clearly carrying a few players who may develop but currently a liability (e.g. Cottrell).
We have 4-5 players currently just getting an opportunity due to injury (e.g. Setterfield, Gibbons, Pittonet).
We have a couple who are past it (e.g. Murphy, Casboult and Eddie although Eddie is doing well at the moment but obvs won't be there next year...)
And we have a structural weakness defensively.

And yet, we are still in most games and only a few goals off the pace.
If we can get Fisher, Marchbank, Charlie, Martin, McGovern etc on the park.
And introduce the likes of Honey, Philp, Kemp.
Maybe lift Dow and SPS to the required level.
And bring in another gun mid FA.

.... we should be able to lift into top bracket reasonably quickly.
AND, in the meantime, we are getting the kind of harsh lessons that the Tigers endured before their sustained success and Melbourne has endured over the past 4 years which should hold us in good stead for the longer term.
And, similar to Melbourne and possibly StKilda, rising up usually isn't a straight near-vertical line up....

PS. I wonder whether we already do have a replacement for Jones: McGovern or JSOS (the other playing 3rd tall forward...)??


I agree with the McGovern suggestion. Not sure about JSOS as a defender being not quick off the mark but reads the play well. I much prefer him as the third tall in the forward line as he has great goal smarts and that is where he is dangerous. Has shown also that he can be a lock down midfielder to replace Ed.


Now you mention pace, I can see Gov as the 3rd tall but not sure he's tall enough for KPD post Jones owns.
But I would rather have Plowman as the 3rd Tall than Gov TBH.

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Lets stick together. Don't believe everything Robinson, Landsberger and Cornes say about Carlton. Shock jocks.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:47 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:55 pm
Posts: 1033
It will be a media shitshow if we don't get the chocolates today.

A week of Carlton bashing - as if we are not used to it by now.

I have lost faith in a lot of these players tbh. We are still a very good one on one side just some have concentration levels of an ant and that worries me.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:47 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 15745
Location: Bondi Beach
The Normal One wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/04/vulnerable-eagles-stand-between-carlton-and-the-fixture-opening-up/

Quote:
The Blues sit 13th on the ladder with four wins at the halfway point of the season, but as Bob Murphy points out: “the draw does open up for them” after the bye.

Close losses to Sydney, Collingwood, Brisbane and the Bulldogs will haunt Carlton, but following their bye and a tough away clash with GWS, the draw does indeed open up.

From Round 15 onwards they play Adelaide, Fremantle, Geelong, Collingwood, North Melbourne, St Kilda, Gold Coast, Port Adelaide and GWS.

If they lose to this Eagles side it likely won’t matter, but they could go in favourites against all-but the Cats and Power in the run home if things break right.


Half way mark.

Tigers on 8th spot with 6 wins. So I assume 12 wins will be the target to make the Final 8. Percentage would count a lot.

We've won 4 and need another 8 wins with only 11 games remaining. Our percentage sits at 93.9%. Tigers sits at 102%.

83 points differential in our percentage. Win 8 games by 20 points each and we make that up easily, including Eagles % advantage over us.

West Coast look most vulnerable on 6 wins but a better percentage, and the Swans after them with 7 wins

Anything can happen, but if Carlton are to get there they can't afford to lose this week, or next week or the week after.... and hope we only drop the Port and cats games, giving us 13 wins.

Tough ask. But its possible.

Plowman back next week
Curnow possibly back after games against Eagles, Giants, Adeliade and Freo, before Cats game.

After that we have games against Coll, North, Saints, GCS before the Port game.

Lets see if Teague have solved our defensive issue


I posted something similar in the wrong thread.

Totally agree top 8 is still possible.

I had us 5-7 after 12 rounds, so today is it. Lose and start playing some kids to give them a taste, and retire a few older players early.

Plenty of 8pt games. GWS twice, Saints, Pies, Freo and all must win. 6-7 is very achievable if we want it bad enough.

How we adapt defensively in the second half of the year is pivotal to making it. At least we look like having a decent run with injuries to help out too.

I’m expecting Kemp to be playing shortly, add Curnow, Martin Gov, Plowman and Fisher fit again, things are looking up.


edit

I predict GWS will end with 9-10 wins, WCE 11, Tigers 14 and cats 14.

I think 11 wins with good percentage, or 12 wins should get us playing finals.

Means zilch if we don't win today.

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Lets stick together. Don't believe everything Robinson, Landsberger and Cornes say about Carlton. Shock jocks.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:50 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
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Worse than we thought and more disappointed than I have been for years
Losing supporters by my the week with weak and insipid performances


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:22 pm 
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Horrie Clover
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Season done! As usual, can book some time away in September

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:24 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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Bunks wrote:
Season done! As usual, can book some time away in September

Knowing our luck we will still be in a @#$&’n lockdown in Melbourne in September :banghead:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:26 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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Yes and again at round 12 we can look towards the draft and trade period knowing whatever happens and whoever we get NOTHING CHANGES


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:33 pm 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Posts: 466
Yes they are beyond bad.
Our playing list is not good enough or hard enough. 18th in tackling differential and disposal efficiency. We are soft.
Our coaches are E grade. No defensive game plan. No ability to motivate the players. Don’t set any standards playing guys who constantly don’t play the right way.
Our head of football is out of his depth. Thought we were on the cusp at the end of 2020. Overrated the list. Didn’t change even one assistant at the end of last season when it was glaringly obvious this was needed.
So yes it is going horribly


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:34 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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:yikes: :oops: :cry:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:20 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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It feels like we got obsessed with trying to build the perfect list, which you can never do. Gut the list, go to the draft with high picks, recruit recycled players who for whatever reason were originally taken as high draft picks. In theory they should all come on together & all blossom at the same time. Water regularly, leave in the sun & voila.

We forgot to build a mentality & a system & a hardness while we were at it. No wonder injuries always absolutely kill us. It's not just list depth we're missing, it's the ability to be a total system where one missing part can be replaced by another that knows its role.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:34 am 
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Ken Hunter
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CK95 wrote:
It feels like we got obsessed with trying to build the perfect list, which you can never do. Gut the list, go to the draft with high picks, recruit recycled players who for whatever reason were originally taken as high draft picks. In theory they should all come on together & all blossom at the same time. Water regularly, leave in the sun & voila.

We forgot to build a mentality & a system & a hardness while we were at it. No wonder injuries always absolutely kill us. It's not just list depth we're missing, it's the ability to be a total system where one missing part can be replaced by another that knows its role.


That's what it looks like to me too.

It's why I've never been a Murphy fan. He was very good when he was young and had Judd taking the heat beside him but those days are long gone and making him captain was one of the poorest decisions the club has made over the last 20 years (and there's some serious competition there). A bloke who looks scared when he's anywhere near a microphone doesn't inspire confidence and when you add choosing when to go or not go it was a shitful decision and set the tone for the last few years of crap.

It was like appointing a kale leaf to be the head of Meat & Livestock Australia.

Simpson should have been made captain back then. Not a perfect choice but he was far closer to what we needed than Murphy was ever going to be. It's set our club culture back years.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:36 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Like I said, we have a chance to make the Finals if we win 12 games.
If we lose against WCE, its season over if we can't beat teams in the 8.
After all its their spot we are after.

We lost against an injury ravaged WCE.
They had a fit squad who attacked the ball and opponent with the ball with intent and intensity.
We on the other hand didn't want to attack the ball and opponent, a significant quality required to be a Finals team.

Mid year Review?

First thing Football Director needs to determine: will we play Finals in 2021?
If not, then start building culture, a minimum expectation of the team that will stand up in 2022, on an individual basis.

That starts with serious improvement of the physical requirements of AFL: Tackling with intent. Not surrendering a chase. Shepherding. Talk whilst gasping for air. Fitness to run out 4 quarters....may be a few more.

If players can't cut it with the abovementioned, they are not the right players for The Carlton football Club. Retire Murphy, Levi and Bettes...@#$%&! I would still keep Betts because there's a lot of players on our list that just wouldn't cut it in any other team. Its time to piss off players and coaches who want to corrall and ball watch.

Next, the defensive mindset of the players. That's a Coaching issue. Get someone that knows how to teach defensive set ups.

I don't think Teague has a Plan B. The transition ball from defense to forward needs a lot of work because our team is still at Gorund Zero. The Transition from midfield contests has to be better than get it and bomb it. WCE worked their way out of stoppages and centre bounces with handball...TEAM WORK !!!!

Its not a rebuild. Its reprogramming and streaming the player list.

I believe the time is now to turn around this team's mindset and get them out of this comfort zone we run out with week in week out.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:44 am 
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Bruce Doull
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GWS wrote:
CK95 wrote:
It feels like we got obsessed with trying to build the perfect list, which you can never do. Gut the list, go to the draft with high picks, recruit recycled players who for whatever reason were originally taken as high draft picks. In theory they should all come on together & all blossom at the same time. Water regularly, leave in the sun & voila.

We forgot to build a mentality & a system & a hardness while we were at it. No wonder injuries always absolutely kill us. It's not just list depth we're missing, it's the ability to be a total system where one missing part can be replaced by another that knows its role.


That's what it looks like to me too.

It's why I've never been a Murphy fan. He was very good when he was young and had Judd taking the heat beside him but those days are long gone and making him captain was one of the poorest decisions the club has made over the last 20 years (and there's some serious competition there). A bloke who looks scared when he's anywhere near a microphone doesn't inspire confidence and when you add choosing when to go or not go it was a shitful decision and set the tone for the last few years of crap.

It was like appointing a kale leaf to be the head of Meat & Livestock Australia.

Simpson should have been made captain back then. Not a perfect choice but he was far closer to what we needed than Murphy was ever going to be. It's set our club culture back years.
:beer:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:52 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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CK95 wrote:
It feels like we got obsessed with trying to build the perfect list, which you can never do. Gut the list, go to the draft with high picks, recruit recycled players who for whatever reason were originally taken as high draft picks. In theory they should all come on together & all blossom at the same time. Water regularly, leave in the sun & voila.

We forgot to build a mentality & a system & a hardness while we were at it. No wonder injuries always absolutely kill us. It's not just list depth we're missing, it's the ability to be a total system where one missing part can be replaced by another that knows its role.


Exactly CK :thumbsup:

Start with the low lying fruit. The obvious weaknesses.

Start by dropping Murphy. He has checked out and compromises the standards required. He had lost his sense of space. He is not about to change. His first quarter (and I was seated at ground level for this game) was weak, insipid, conditional and plays with a sense of entitlement. Has since he got smashed by Dangerfield in 2012 ie his last 100 games. Fans were laughing at "the old man". He's embarrassing and coaches selecting him are guilty of setting him up as "laughing stock".

That will be a sign the first step has been taken. Murphy should retire 'hurt'.

Next step is to start selecting AFL players not VFL players or Stawell Gift runners: see yu Cottrell (you have a lot of work to do with your skills and hardness at the contest).

See, 2 just like that. Newnes, Setterfield may have had their 15 disposals but they are ball watchers. Pitto is terrible. I don't care if he tries his best and I know he's the best we've got.

Anyone know WTF was the role Ed Curnow playing?

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