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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:11 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Posts: 865
Where is the upside for this club at the moment? The first six weeks show we are an ordinary side that cannot compete for four quarters with good sides. We’ll probably end up coming somewhere around 11-14 on the ladder because we’ve got a few stars on the list. Without them, we are a bottom 4 side.
Looking at the VFL yesterday. There is next to nothing there. We could bring in Setterfield, Dow and LOB but we’ve seen that won’t help us win. Our horrendous development has rendered those three as damaged goods at this point.
The only upside I can see is bringing back players who are currently injured. Problem is the first batch of returning players appear weeks off being able to play seniors given a number are coming off long term injuries and will need to start in the 2s (eg TDK and Newman). If the season isn’t already gone, it will be by the time we get these guys back.
It’s all tracking towards another complete waste of a year.
So how do we salvage something from this season? Start by phasing out the older guys who are done. Should have happened a while ago. Then let’s see a bit of our 2019 and 2020 draftees - Kemp, Philp, Ramsay, Carroll, Durdin, Parks. They need to earn selection but also we need to be bold and actually play them over the same players who have tried and failed on numerous occasions


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:12 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10059
Jonosc1 wrote:
Gotta say anyone who is happy with that performance has been beaten down by 20 years of failure.

We don’t run. We don’t help our teammates, we don’t run to create space.

Rob Murphy said tonight we are soulless. He is right.


:clap:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:12 am 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8166
Location: Australia
Waterman wrote:
We are the worst skilled side in the AFL , with the exception of Walsh . Does not matter what our game plan is , unless we address this problem we are going nowhere. The amount of missed kicks, handballs and shots at goal is nothing but appalling. With the amount of high draft picks we have had in recent years we have stuffed up big time . I only hope that the new draft picks we have coming through will change this , but until they are ready we are in for lots more pain . I have been a passionate blue bagger for 58 years and it really hurts and frustrates me to see my side be so bad for so many years . I will always be a blue bagger but shit we have to get our act together before we loose a generation of young supporters from which we may never recover .


I disagree, our list is good enough to make finals, what’s missing is culture and system (and soul). Put any of our top 16 in another club and they will do fine with their skills. You don’t get to play AFL if you don’t have the skills.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:26 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10059
I’ve been trying to stay away from this conversation but it a shocking trade. Pick 8 for a player that runs like a headless chook and can’t defend deep in the backline. Really, really disappointing.

Losing Martin and Fisher has exposed our small forward depth and they aren’t pure smalls. We are using 3 midfielders as half forwards and 1 veteran, who unfortunately doesn’t have anything left in the tank. When the ball hits the ground in our forward line, there is no ground work. None, zilch and equals to no scoring options at ground level and easy exit. A major part of our game is based on this, isn’t?

No improvement in our centre clearances setups and forward transitions......wow. How some of these assistants kept their jobs over this preseason is mind numbing.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:32 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20208
Location: North of the border
keogh wrote:
Why are we so average 6 years into a rebuild?
Thoughts
There is a reason why Jack was adamant that we don't rebuild at Carlton and what you are seeing unfold now is the reason.
You mention rebuild it is like mentioning restructure in a buisness. It becomes a red flag for everyone and people stop working as a team and start going into the job protection racket.
You give excuses for the younger players and gifted them games and stifled their development.
Keogh you blame the board and the recruitment and that is a minor problem.
I have been banging on for years that the rebuild will fail and no one has built a team by going to the draft with high end picks. Maybe drop down for a year or 2 to bring in talent but don't do it for years.
I was shot down on this site for saying that this was not the way to go.
Club needs to now flog it out and finish 9 to 11 for the next five to six years to build resilience in the players.
This buisness of going to the draft getting the best picks and basically blowing the place up will just lead to many more years of hardship

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:56 am 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:40 am
Posts: 201
Location: Carlton
Sydney Blue wrote:
We enter each game like we have already activated the medical sub and down to 1 man on the bench.
Its not that we are carrying injuries we are carrying players that don't contribute and don't offer anything to the side.
Levi is useless
Betts I love the bloke but time has come.
Newnes very ordinary
Plowman I bowed to BV better judgement but now I find I am with Agro
Cotrell plenty of effort but is a ball butcher
Gibbons gives us not much
Pino is only just a ruckman
If Ed is not tagging he should not be playing.

To many part contributors and luckily we have Weiters Walsh and Harry otherwise we would be worse than North

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Hard to argue with this. However, the majority of the potential replacements are injured.
i.e. Marchbank/Parks for Plowman (will never happen coaches love him), Martin for Gibbons, Fisher for Betts, De Koning for Pitto, Newman for Newnes, JSOS for Casboult and for good measure add Charlie & Kemp who I have been told was ready to go round one this year

From yesterday's ressies you could bring in Setterfield (only if he plays on ball) and Dow, but ideally the latter will be allowed to build more confidence in the seconds for a while. Honey looks to have some traits as does Ramsay but my preference would be just continue to build them up in the twos rather than throw them in and risk burning their development. Owies I am not sold on and Williamson needs an extended run back there.
O'Brien is the other one but to me he only looks good in acres of space and with no pressure. This barely happens at senior level so I don't hold much hope there.

I think fair to say we don't yet have the depth to beat top sides


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:59 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
I still can't get over the second quarter. Yes we have away frees and in turn territory and momentum BUT for the whole quarter we had no numbers at the ball, the entire group just stopped trying.

Isn't it incumbent on the coach, ultimately to fix this continual problem relating to lack of consistent effort?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:02 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5990
Location: Melbourne
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Why are we so average 6 years into a rebuild?
Thoughts
There is a reason why Jack was adamant that we don't rebuild at Carlton and what you are seeing unfold now is the reason.
You mention rebuild it is like mentioning restructure in a buisness. It becomes a red flag for everyone and people stop working as a team and start going into the job protection racket.
You give excuses for the younger players and gifted them games and stifled their development.
Keogh you blame the board and the recruitment and that is a minor problem.
I have been banging on for years that the rebuild will fail and no one has built a team by going to the draft with high end picks. Maybe drop down for a year or 2 to bring in talent but don't do it for years.
I was shot down on this site for saying that this was not the way to go.
Club needs to now flog it out and finish 9 to 11 for the next five to six years to build resilience in the players.
This buisness of going to the draft getting the best picks and basically blowing the place up will just lead to many more years of hardship

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


I agree, keep trying to be the best we can with what we have, rather than blowing the place up.

People might thing that’s mediocrity, however it will mean a few things:

No more gifting games to young guys

No more outs for never winning, claiming it’s ok because it’s a rebuild

From there we can look to keep improving the list as we go, delist/retire/trade non performers, but with an eye on improving the team, not going to ground zero.

As you said it might mean we finish lower mid table 5 years in a row, hell maybe 10 years, but I think it’s the only way to change the culture of the place.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:03 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
Reason Teague keeps playing Betts and Newnes and Murphy etc is because we got Saad and Williams thinking our time in now. Boy oh boy did we misread that.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:09 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20208
Location: North of the border
Paddycripps wrote:
Reason Teague keeps playing Betts and Newnes and Murphy etc is because we got Saad and Williams thinking our time in now. Boy oh boy did we misread that.
No thats not true he does it because Dow OBrien and co are not performing.
The players drafted to the club to take their spots are either in the medical room because they played before their bodies could cope or they are mentally shot as Bolton just played them.
It is no coincidence that the 1 player who was held back and made to earn it is now equal leader in the Coleman

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:16 am 
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Ken Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10059
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Why are we so average 6 years into a rebuild?
Thoughts
There is a reason why Jack was adamant that we don't rebuild at Carlton and what you are seeing unfold now is the reason.
You mention rebuild it is like mentioning restructure in a buisness. It becomes a red flag for everyone and people stop working as a team and start going into the job protection racket.
You give excuses for the younger players and gifted them games and stifled their development.
Keogh you blame the board and the recruitment and that is a minor problem.
I have been banging on for years that the rebuild will fail and no one has built a team by going to the draft with high end picks. Maybe drop down for a year or 2 to bring in talent but don't do it for years.
I was shot down on this site for saying that this was not the way to go.
Club needs to now flog it out and finish 9 to 11 for the next five to six years to build resilience in the players.
This buisness of going to the draft getting the best picks and basically blowing the place up will just lead to many more years of hardship

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


You and I Sydney. :clap: I remember the banter between Synbad and myself.
Unfortunately we won’t get anyone acknowledge this, even after all this.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:35 am 
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Rod Ashman
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 2582
SurreyBlue wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Why are we so average 6 years into a rebuild?
Thoughts
There is a reason why Jack was adamant that we don't rebuild at Carlton and what you are seeing unfold now is the reason.
You mention rebuild it is like mentioning restructure in a buisness. It becomes a red flag for everyone and people stop working as a team and start going into the job protection racket.
You give excuses for the younger players and gifted them games and stifled their development.
Keogh you blame the board and the recruitment and that is a minor problem.
I have been banging on for years that the rebuild will fail and no one has built a team by going to the draft with high end picks. Maybe drop down for a year or 2 to bring in talent but don't do it for years.
I was shot down on this site for saying that this was not the way to go.
Club needs to now flog it out and finish 9 to 11 for the next five to six years to build resilience in the players.
This buisness of going to the draft getting the best picks and basically blowing the place up will just lead to many more years of hardship

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


You and I Sydney. :clap: I remember the banter between Synbad and myself.
Unfortunately we won’t get anyone acknowledge this, even after all this.


alright re, you're the best re :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:45 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5959
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Why are we so average 6 years into a rebuild?
Thoughts
There is a reason why Jack was adamant that we don't rebuild at Carlton and what you are seeing unfold now is the reason.
You mention rebuild it is like mentioning restructure in a buisness. It becomes a red flag for everyone and people stop working as a team and start going into the job protection racket.
You give excuses for the younger players and gifted them games and stifled their development.
Keogh you blame the board and the recruitment and that is a minor problem.
I have been banging on for years that the rebuild will fail and no one has built a team by going to the draft with high end picks. Maybe drop down for a year or 2 to bring in talent but don't do it for years.
I was shot down on this site for saying that this was not the way to go.
Club needs to now flog it out and finish 9 to 11 for the next five to six years to build resilience in the players.
This buisness of going to the draft getting the best picks and basically blowing the place up will just lead to many more years of hardship

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


I’ll post in the board section Later
Briefly here
The main problem I see in a football sense is our recruiting trading and list management
It’s has been disastrous
I’ve seeing saying this for years
The last 6 has been woeful in regards to certain trades we all know about
and a lack of recruiting midfielders and recruiting good players from late and rookie picks
It simply hasn’t happened
Richmond had 9 players who were not top 50 picks in their flag winning teams in the last 2 years
In the last 20 years
Brisbane
Geelong
West Coast
Hawthorn
Sydney
Richmond
All their prime movers came from the National draft as kids
In the last 20 years when the draft and salary cap took full effect( from 1987)
Only eight teams have won flags
Ten haven’t

Chris Judd and Craig Mathieson specific portfolios are List Management. In relation to Mathieson it’s the reserves
Let’s be honest
Unless your a complete moron you know why Mathieson is on the board
He has been on their for around a decade

Judd is a smart guy was a great player
Doesn’t automatically mean you are good at this job
Should have learnt that from Sticks being the president and SOS being the List Manager

When any business isn’t succeeding the problem originates at the top


Last edited by keogh on Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:48 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:35 am
Posts: 19436
Location: 父 父 父 父 父 父
I barrack more for an Essendon* loss than a Carlton win these days. One is more likely.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:50 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20208
Location: North of the border
keogh wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Why are we so average 6 years into a rebuild?
Thoughts
There is a reason why Jack was adamant that we don't rebuild at Carlton and what you are seeing unfold now is the reason.
You mention rebuild it is like mentioning restructure in a buisness. It becomes a red flag for everyone and people stop working as a team and start going into the job protection racket.
You give excuses for the younger players and gifted them games and stifled their development.
Keogh you blame the board and the recruitment and that is a minor problem.
I have been banging on for years that the rebuild will fail and no one has built a team by going to the draft with high end picks. Maybe drop down for a year or 2 to bring in talent but don't do it for years.
I was shot down on this site for saying that this was not the way to go.
Club needs to now flog it out and finish 9 to 11 for the next five to six years to build resilience in the players.
This buisness of going to the draft getting the best picks and basically blowing the place up will just lead to many more years of hardship

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


I’ll post in the board section Later
Briefly here
The main problem I see in a football sense is our recruiting trading and list management
It’s has been disastrous
I’ve seeing saying this for years
The last 6 has been woeful in regards to certain trades we all know about
and an lack of recruiting midfielders and recruiting good players from late and rookie picks
It simply hasn’t happened

Chris Judd and Craig Mathieson specific portfolios are List Management. In relation to Mathieson it’s the reserves
Let’s be honest
Unless your a complete moron you know why Mathieson is on the board
He has been on their for around a decade

Judd is a smart guy was a great player
Doesn’t automatically mean you are good at this job
Should have learnt that from Sticks being the president and SOS being the List Manager

When any business isn’t succeeding the problem originate at the top
It doesn't matter who we draft in or out.
We have been saying this for years we can't get them all wrong.

It is the tone of the place just because you have a axe to grind against the board and SOS.

You never say rebuild or we are building or we are developing. That is for suburban football teams.
We are in the big time and it is and should be about winning not who we draft in or out .
Stop trying to win in the off season

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:05 pm 
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John James

Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:59 pm
Posts: 671
99prelim wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
We enter each game like we have already activated the medical sub and down to 1 man on the bench.
Its not that we are carrying injuries we are carrying players that don't contribute and don't offer anything to the side.
Levi is useless
Betts I love the bloke but time has come.
Newnes very ordinary
Plowman I bowed to BV better judgement but now I find I am with Agro
Cotrell plenty of effort but is a ball butcher
Gibbons gives us not much
Pino is only just a ruckman
If Ed is not tagging he should not be playing.

To many part contributors and luckily we have Weiters Walsh and Harry otherwise we would be worse than North

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Haven't always agreed with you SB but I can't fault what you've written. I really want Gibbo to succeed; love his enthusiasm but am concerned that a VFL ball magnet has gone backwards this year (stagnated at least)
And...you can add Murphy and SPS to that list of perennial passengers...so you're right, we play with 2-3 players down most games


So many down on Mark Murphy a couple of weeks ago and Carlton coches must have been listening. They pulled out stats about how many score involvements he has prior to Port game, up there with anybody this year other than Walsh who’s in everything.

Agree about Gibbo. He used to be in and about the ball any time it crossed over the A50, often kicked the first goal of the game, but had five possessions and three tackles last night. Even if he was playing a defensive lock-down role that is abysmal for someone with his ability to get his hands on it. But he’s been at least passable in most other games this year. Injured?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:07 pm 
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Rod Ashman
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 2582
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Why are we so average 6 years into a rebuild?
Thoughts
There is a reason why Jack was adamant that we don't rebuild at Carlton and what you are seeing unfold now is the reason.
You mention rebuild it is like mentioning restructure in a buisness. It becomes a red flag for everyone and people stop working as a team and start going into the job protection racket.
You give excuses for the younger players and gifted them games and stifled their development.
Keogh you blame the board and the recruitment and that is a minor problem.
I have been banging on for years that the rebuild will fail and no one has built a team by going to the draft with high end picks. Maybe drop down for a year or 2 to bring in talent but don't do it for years.
I was shot down on this site for saying that this was not the way to go.
Club needs to now flog it out and finish 9 to 11 for the next five to six years to build resilience in the players.
This buisness of going to the draft getting the best picks and basically blowing the place up will just lead to many more years of hardship

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


I’ll post in the board section Later
Briefly here
The main problem I see in a football sense is our recruiting trading and list management
It’s has been disastrous
I’ve seeing saying this for years
The last 6 has been woeful in regards to certain trades we all know about
and an lack of recruiting midfielders and recruiting good players from late and rookie picks
It simply hasn’t happened

Chris Judd and Craig Mathieson specific portfolios are List Management. In relation to Mathieson it’s the reserves
Let’s be honest
Unless your a complete moron you know why Mathieson is on the board
He has been on their for around a decade

Judd is a smart guy was a great player
Doesn’t automatically mean you are good at this job
Should have learnt that from Sticks being the president and SOS being the List Manager

When any business isn’t succeeding the problem originate at the top


It doesn't matter who we draft in or out.
We have been saying this for years we can't get them all wrong.


It is the tone of the place just because you have a axe to grind against the board and SOS.

You never say rebuild or we are building or we are developing. That is for suburban football teams.
We are in the big time and it is and should be about winning not who we draft in or out .
Stop trying to win in the off season

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk



We cannot develop.
One game then dropped.
Different position.
Lack of senior leadership and mentors.
Lack of individual skill and mental growth.
Lack of team unity.


Sad


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:10 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3448
sinbagger wrote:
Waterman wrote:
We are the worst skilled side in the AFL , with the exception of Walsh . Does not matter what our game plan is , unless we address this problem we are going nowhere. The amount of missed kicks, handballs and shots at goal is nothing but appalling. With the amount of high draft picks we have had in recent years we have stuffed up big time . I only hope that the new draft picks we have coming through will change this , but until they are ready we are in for lots more pain . I have been a passionate blue bagger for 58 years and it really hurts and frustrates me to see my side be so bad for so many years . I will always be a blue bagger but shit we have to get our act together before we loose a generation of young supporters from which we may never recover .


I disagree, our list is good enough to make finals, what’s missing is culture and system (and soul). Put any of our top 16 in another club and they will do fine with their skills. You don’t get to play AFL if you don’t have the skills.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:15 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3448
redback wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Why are we so average 6 years into a rebuild?
Thoughts
There is a reason why Jack was adamant that we don't rebuild at Carlton and what you are seeing unfold now is the reason.
You mention rebuild it is like mentioning restructure in a buisness. It becomes a red flag for everyone and people stop working as a team and start going into the job protection racket.
You give excuses for the younger players and gifted them games and stifled their development.
Keogh you blame the board and the recruitment and that is a minor problem.
I have been banging on for years that the rebuild will fail and no one has built a team by going to the draft with high end picks. Maybe drop down for a year or 2 to bring in talent but don't do it for years.
I was shot down on this site for saying that this was not the way to go.
Club needs to now flog it out and finish 9 to 11 for the next five to six years to build resilience in the players.
This buisness of going to the draft getting the best picks and basically blowing the place up will just lead to many more years of hardship

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


I’ll post in the board section Later
Briefly here
The main problem I see in a football sense is our recruiting trading and list management
It’s has been disastrous
I’ve seeing saying this for years
The last 6 has been woeful in regards to certain trades we all know about
and an lack of recruiting midfielders and recruiting good players from late and rookie picks
It simply hasn’t happened

Chris Judd and Craig Mathieson specific portfolios are List Management. In relation to Mathieson it’s the reserves
Let’s be honest
Unless your a complete moron you know why Mathieson is on the board
He has been on their for around a decade

Judd is a smart guy was a great player
Doesn’t automatically mean you are good at this job
Should have learnt that from Sticks being the president and SOS being the List Manager

When any business isn’t succeeding the problem originate at the top


It doesn't matter who we draft in or out.
We have been saying this for years we can't get them all wrong.


It is the tone of the place just because you have a axe to grind against the board and SOS.

You never say rebuild or we are building or we are developing. That is for suburban football teams.
We are in the big time and it is and should be about winning not who we draft in or out .
Stop trying to win in the off season

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk



We cannot develop.
One game then dropped.
Different position.
Lack of senior leadership and mentors.
Lack of individual skill and mental growth.
Lack of team unity.



Sad


Cannot Argue With That

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:19 pm 
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John James

Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:59 pm
Posts: 671
Sydney Blue wrote:
Paddycripps wrote:
It is no coincidence that the 1 player who was held back and made to earn it is now equal leader in the Coleman

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Interesting point, if that’s not just a coincidence. Agree match committee picking older players b/c trying to build a consistent game where they execute systems and know when to shift gears. That’s what mature players are there to do. Murphy has a lot of haters it seems, but he’s consistently in scoring chains this year, even if he isnt on the end of them kicking goals very often he pops up with one or two most games.


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