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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:32 am 
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Bob Chitty
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Contract value is always potential total value.

They get base salary + match payments + bonuses for amount games played + bonuses for best and fairest, AA and such awards.

Bottom sides always run the risk of being under the cap.

Walsh would be getting maximum value from his contract and Charlie + Marchbank would be getting base salary only for example. All players need an incentive to perform - money is just not thrown at them they need to earn it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:00 am 
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Harry Vallence
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kingkerna wrote:
Why do we fall into the trap of basing players on their supposed salary?

If they are getting paid 800k and playing like a good 500k player they are still worthwhile to the team.

As long as we have a good grip on our overall TPP I don't have a problem.

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I agree. If they are playing their part for the team then I don't give a rats what they are paid.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:11 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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dannyboy wrote:
You wouldn't have gone after Williams. Okay, we disagree.

I think Williams has been really good so far and will get better. I also think its silly to guess what we pay. We do not know - the media does not know, it's a game to sell papers, that is all. As long as we spend what we can and bank what we can't, I don't give a rat's.

Take Martin, you take his whole contract (in context of all our contracts) not 1 year (and ignoring all our other contracts) - but that mightn't suit your argument.


The Australian reported that he is on 4.8 million over 6 years plus incentives.
GWS offered $700000 a season. By paying overs we therefore didn’t have to hand pick 8 to them which we did for Saad.
Before COVID Martin was in on 1.1 million in 2020 front ended and then around 600000 a season after that. Clearly the club planned to land some big fish in the 2020 trade period

But how good are Martin and Williams
Both players have not been all Australian
Haven’t got near a best and fairest

It’s short term thinking

Williams was ok Sunday. Just ok
As I said given the long term nature and the size of the contracts it may come to bite us later on


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:21 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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You wouldn't have gone after Williams suggests that you aren't happy that we have him - that's crazy stuff.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:35 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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kingkerna wrote:
You wouldn't have gone after Williams suggests that you aren't happy that we have him - that's crazy stuff.


Tell me what he has achieved at GWS


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:37 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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keogh wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
You wouldn't have gone after Williams suggests that you aren't happy that we have him - that's crazy stuff.


Tell me what he has achieved at GWS
Tell me if you think he improves our list and is in our top ten players

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:55 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 15346
Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
You wouldn't have gone after Williams. Okay, we disagree.

I think Williams has been really good so far and will get better. I also think its silly to guess what we pay. We do not know - the media does not know, it's a game to sell papers, that is all. As long as we spend what we can and bank what we can't, I don't give a rat's.

Take Martin, you take his whole contract (in context of all our contracts) not 1 year (and ignoring all our other contracts) - but that mightn't suit your argument.


The Australian reported that he is on 4.8 million over 6 years plus incentives.
GWS offered $700000 a season. By paying overs we therefore didn’t have to hand pick 8 to them which we did for Saad.
Before COVID Martin was in on 1.1 million in 2020 front ended and then around 600000 a season after that. Clearly the club planned to land some big fish in the 2020 trade period

But how good are Martin and Williams
Both players have not been all Australian
Haven’t got near a best and fairest

It’s short term thinking

Williams was ok Sunday. Just ok
As I said given the long term nature and the size of the contracts it may come to bite us later on


keogh, you're seeing what you want to see, and say what you want to suit your agends.

I don't want to hound you, because some of the stuff you say I agree with, but this stuff about recent spends, the $ value, and the quality of the recruit are not helpful for intelligent discussion.

We have to recruit top end players, and yes all 3 have been.
We have to spend out 100-105% or we lose it.
We have to keep front loading to make our 90%.
The Australian figures are exaggerated, with the exception of the first year.
They multiplied the first year payment (front end), by the length of the contract, and assumed that's the number. Magic.
Since when did you start believing the News publications?

Williams is a fantastic acqusition for us. Fantastic. Have a look at the numbers...and Ive got him ahead of Cripps over first 3 rounds, but that's my opinion. He adds are hard edge and manic attack on man and ball; something we have missing, big time.

Saad is a fantastic acquisition for us. The opposition have kept a watchful eye on stopping him getting loose. That happens. but his ability to dispose of the ball, keeping in play under duress, is quite unique amongth the whole AFL not just Carlton.

It was part of the plan to top up such was the brilliance in creating our 105% of our salary cap for consistent years. We can spend what we need to keep topping up from now on, because I don't think half of SOS' first rounders are going to make it.

We are a destination club, Salary cap keeps going up (Covid reductions were proportionate across the whole AFL, but will be revived when the country's majority are vaccinated.

Now back to your good arguments.

Nothing stopping us from recruiting mature age players, and we should.
SOS rebuild is questionable because of failures with our mids drafted Dow, OBrien now in their 4th years haven't really excelled....plus question marks on Cuningham and kennedy.
Club cultural issues which may have been addressed and those which haven't.

Mind you, I'm a business man, and know that theories without $ are just that, and I am grateful we have Pratts and Mathisons on our side, who don't interfere like you think, because all other clubs have got them too. Thes eare the pockets of money you go to when in need AND if we want to create other revnue streams within the AFL guidelines. Pokie machines will soon be a thing of the past.

Lets get to a bird in the hand, and what we need to do to continue to get up the ladder: and we will, this year.

I want to see another 2 recruits per year, for nest 2 years like Williams and Saad and cut the duds and those we have replaced with better players (like Williams and saad...and Fogarty and Austin should be congratulated).

We have no debt, we are not broke, and we STILL have heaps of room in our salary cap to spend AGAIN THIS YEAR.

All we need is for the AFL soft cap to be lifter post pandemic...and it will be lifted. We have come from a loooong way behind, and nearly caught up...just have to work out who the deadwood are, moving forward.

Come on. Get on board ... and keep the bastards honest, without belittling and devaluing the good players we have in OUR stable. Its pointless and unrealistic.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:56 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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kingkerna wrote:
keogh wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
You wouldn't have gone after Williams suggests that you aren't happy that we have him - that's crazy stuff.


Tell me what he has achieved at GWS
Tell me if you think he improves our list and is in our top ten players

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk[/quote

What has he achieved a GWS
Why didn’t you answer question?
It’s a fairly important question when your on this sort of money
Does he improve the list. That I can’t answer because he has played about 4 career games as a mid.
He now has to do it every week rather than the occasional cameo.
Is he in our top 10. Yeah but that wouldn’t be hard and so he should be being either the highest paid player or the second highest paid guy after Cripps

I’ll answer the question you refused to answer
In eight seasons he played 113 games mostly on a HBF
Didn’t finish top 3 in the Best and Fairest.
His finest moment was the 2019 finals where through necessity he played a key role in the midfield
He had an ordinary 2020 season
So he isn’t a star based on all that
He is a good player who is being asked to play a more demanding role
You and I can’t exactly say if he can play quality midfield minutes for a whole season because he hasn’t done it in 8 previous seasons


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:59 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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bondiblue wrote:
keogh wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
You wouldn't have gone after Williams. Okay, we disagree.

I think Williams has been really good so far and will get better. I also think its silly to guess what we pay. We do not know - the media does not know, it's a game to sell papers, that is all. As long as we spend what we can and bank what we can't, I don't give a rat's.

Take Martin, you take his whole contract (in context of all our contracts) not 1 year (and ignoring all our other contracts) - but that mightn't suit your argument.


The Australian reported that he is on 4.8 million over 6 years plus incentives.
GWS offered $700000 a season. By paying overs we therefore didn’t have to hand pick 8 to them which we did for Saad.
Before COVID Martin was in on 1.1 million in 2020 front ended and then around 600000 a season after that. Clearly the club planned to land some big fish in the 2020 trade period

But how good are Martin and Williams
Both players have not been all Australian
Haven’t got near a best and fairest

It’s short term thinking

Williams was ok Sunday. Just ok
As I said given the long term nature and the size of the contracts it may come to bite us later on


keogh, you're seeing what you want to see, and say what you want to suit your agends.

I don't want to hound you, because some of the stuff you say I agree with, but this stuff about recent spends, the $ value, and the quality of the recruit are not helpful for intelligent discussion.

We have to recruit top end players, and yes all 3 have been.
We have to spend out 100-105% or we lose it.
We have to keep front loading to make our 90%.
The Australian figures are exaggerated, with the exception of the first year.
They multiplied the first year payment (front end), by the length of the contract, and assumed that's the number. Magic.
Since when did you start believing the News publications?

Williams is a fantastic acqusition for us. Fantastic. Have a look at the numbers...and Ive got him ahead of Cripps over first 3 rounds, but that's my opinion. He adds are hard edge and manic attack on man and ball; something we have missing, big time.

Saad is a fantastic acquisition for us. The opposition have kept a watchful eye on stopping him getting loose. That happens. but his ability to dispose of the ball, keeping in play under duress, is quite unique amongth the whole AFL not just Carlton.

It was part of the plan to top up such was the brilliance in creating our 105% of our salary cap for consistent years. We can spend what we need to keep topping up from now on, because I don't think half of SOS' first rounders are going to make it.

We are a destination club, Salary cap keeps going up (Covid reductions were proportionate across the whole AFL, but will be revived when the country's majority are vaccinated.

Now back to your good arguments.

Nothing stopping us from recruiting mature age players, and we should.
SOS rebuild is questionable because of failures with our mids drafted Dow, OBrien now in their 4th years haven't really excelled....plus question marks on Cuningham and kennedy.
Club cultural issues which may have been addressed and those which haven't.

Mind you, I'm a business man, and know that theories without $ are just that, and I am grateful we have Pratts and Mathisons on our side, who don't interfere like you think, because all other clubs have got them too. Thes eare the pockets of money you go to when in need AND if we want to create other revnue streams within the AFL guidelines. Pokie machines will soon be a thing of the past.

Lets get to a bird in the hand, and what we need to do to continue to get up the ladder: and we will, this year.

I want to see another 2 recruits per year, for nest 2 years like Williams and Saad and cut the duds and those we have replaced with better players (like Williams and saad...and Fogarty and Austin should be congratulated).

We have no debt, we are not broke, and we STILL have heaps of room in our salary cap to spend AGAIN THIS YEAR.

All we need is for the AFL soft cap to be lifter post pandemic...and it will be lifted. We have come from a loooong way behind, and nearly caught up...just have to work out who the deadwood are, moving forward.

Come on. Get on board ... and keep the bastards honest, without belittling and devaluing the good players we have in OUR stable. Its pointless and unrealistic.

Read the previous post I sent to KK


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:51 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 15346
Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
keogh wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
You wouldn't have gone after Williams suggests that you aren't happy that we have him - that's crazy stuff.


Tell me what he has achieved at GWS
Tell me if you think he improves our list and is in our top ten players

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk[/quote

What has he achieved a GWS
Why didn’t you answer question?
It’s a fairly important question when your on this sort of money
Does he improve the list. That I can’t answer because he has played about 4 career games as a mid.
He now has to do it every week rather than the occasional cameo.
Is he in our top 10. Yeah but that wouldn’t be hard and so he should be being either the highest paid player or the second highest paid guy after Cripps

I’ll answer the question you refused to answer
In eight seasons he played 113 games mostly on a HBF
Didn’t finish top 3 in the Best and Fairest.
His finest moment was the 2019 finals where through necessity he played a key role in the midfield
He had an ordinary 2020 season
So he isn’t a star based on all that
He is a good player who is being asked to play a more demanding role
You and I can’t exactly say if he can play quality midfield minutes for a whole season because he hasn’t done it in 8 previous seasons


I have seen a lot of GWS games...a lot...and I've met a few GWS people, including the coach.

Have a look at the playing list at GWS to see the quality they have had on their books. 10 top drafts every year for 5 years; more than SOS at Carlton. There's never been anything like it before.
Quality on every line.

You have no idea about the GWS. None.

Ask yourself, if all those top 10 mids recruited by GWS play in the midfield? I'm talking silly number of mids, every year, for 5 years. No.
That's why Green plays in a FP. Others HBF, others HFF, whilst plenty of other top 10 players still in the reserves. Then there's this kid from the country, a rookie, also a midfielder, who passes all of them to be a mainstay of their team for the good part of 7 years ... and when needed, and in a Final, they needed him to fill the midfield position, due to injury and he did with aplomb. BOG in a FINAL. FACT.

I know a Board Member from GWS said that if they could keep Williams, and they moved money where they could, to keep him, they would have. But he's such a great player, he deserves a big pay packet after the average payments he received whilst contracted at the GWS because of his loyalty (not like the others) and....because Cameron, Kelly, Coniglio, Whitfield...sucked most of the cap dry.

You obviously don't know the GWS story, hence all the questions, which are obviously used in a way in hope to sway a "thought", or theory. That's all you have here keogh on the GWS and Williams situation; a "thought". You don't have a clue. You know what "Thought" did? Stuck a feather in the ground and 'thought' he'd grow a rooster.

Stop making up crap, and focus on the ideals you have some idea about. It's no good to poison the water with crap. Its just not Food for "Thought".

I'm just responding to clear the crap so people don't think your thoughts are fact. Nothing personal. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:01 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 15346
Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
keogh wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
You wouldn't have gone after Williams suggests that you aren't happy that we have him - that's crazy stuff.


Tell me what he has achieved at GWS
Tell me if you think he improves our list and is in our top ten players

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk[/quote

What has he achieved a GWS
Why didn’t you answer question?
It’s a fairly important question when your on this sort of money
Does he improve the list. That I can’t answer because he has played about 4 career games as a mid.
He now has to do it every week rather than the occasional cameo.
Is he in our top 10. Yeah but that wouldn’t be hard and so he should be being either the highest paid player or the second highest paid guy after Cripps

I’ll answer the question you refused to answer
In eight seasons he played 113 games mostly on a HBF
Didn’t finish top 3 in the Best and Fairest.
His finest moment was the 2019 finals where through necessity he played a key role in the midfield
He had an ordinary 2020 season
So he isn’t a star based on all that
He is a good player who is being asked to play a more demanding role
You and I can’t exactly say if he can play quality midfield minutes for a whole season because he hasn’t done it in 8 previous seasons


That's ridiculous keogh...he isn't a star based on that...what's "that" mean?

Did you know Williams was injured most of 2020?

If you did, you are deliberately misleading posters, which makes me really :mad: and smearing Williams to suit your agenda.

Leave him alone. He's innocent.

Please help make TC an open and honest intelligent discussion about carlton

and your last point is so dumb, and typed to suck in anyone else who is not a deep thinker "You and I can’t exactly say if he can play quality midfield minutes for a whole season because he hasn’t done it in 8 previous seasons"...then why don't you stop saying he isn't a midfielder and wait till the end of the year to judge given he's never done it before. Ridiculous commentary. Serious.

He is leading many of the midfield stats thus far.

Stop misleading.

Thank god I'm going on holidays tonight.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:14 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Geez your talking him up
Fact
He hasn’t been a regular mid
He has played HBF virtually his whole career
He didn’t get a guernsey in the middle because of Kelly and co
Fact is he hasn’t consistently played in the middle for an extended period of time
That is a fact BB
And until he does and does it well for an extended run you me KK and everyone else don’t know
He would need to do better than Sunday
It’s only one game
The club addressed the issue of a lack of speed last year
But have payed a massive price in terms of salary cap space and picks to get
Williams Saad and Fogarty
St Kilda did the same. They made the second week of the finals
Big deal
They overrated their list
So do they think their list is good enough to win a flag
They are miles off it
There is a huge jump to make a Prelim.
They are normally the most pressure games
If you go too early in using up salary cap space to get a couple of experienced players you don’t have to develop you
1 Hope their output matches their salary
2 the support cast does the job
The Saints support cast their bottom six players are terrible
So grabbing Hill Jones etc might get them a finals game or two but ultimately sets them back years when it comes to making a preliminary final
That’s why I look at our worst players when we win lose or draw
We carried 5 or 6 last week
They won’t get the job done come finals time

The morale of the story
Don’t go too hard and get sucked into gaining players through free agency if your list has more holes than Swiss cheese
Williams ain’t proven as a regular effective mid( assuming it’s mainly an outside mid)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:18 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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I ain’t smearing Williams
He was a good player at GWS but not great and not worth the amount he is getting for 6 years
He has been the benefactor of free agency
Pay more and you don’t give away your draft pick
No misleading there BB


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:15 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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We won by more than 7 goals.
You'd never know reading some of the shit in this thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:26 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Keogh, usually I agree somewhat with some of the things you say and the point you are trying to make.
But saying Williams is not worth the money he is on, based on his previous position and accolades at GWS is a little misguided. i.e. A Top 3 player from GWS would command $1 mill per year, minimum.
We have had a lot of high draft picks over the last 5 years and we needed to inject mature talent to not only lead from the front but to also help coach on field. i.e. Eddie Betts, while I personally disagreed having him back it was as plain as day on the weekend the influence he has in the F50, even though he didn't really hit the score board.
Williams is elite and will help take the heat of Cripps, Walsh and the other kids coming through.
So far this season his stats are:
Disposals: 19.4 - Above average
Contested Possessions: 11.5 - Elite
Kicks: 13 - Elite
Clearances: 8 - Elite
Meters gained: 344.9 - Elite
Inside 50s: 5.5 - Elite
Effective Kicks: 7.5 - Elite
Ground Ball gets: 7 - Elite
One percenters: 2 - Elite
Tackles: 4 - Above average
Score involvements: 4 - Above average

We now have 3 Elite midfielders in Williams, Walsh and Cripps.
We just need one more and also develop the kids a bit better and we are good to go.
I get your fear, but I think we are in a lot better position than St Kilda with the level of talent our kids have IMO.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:36 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Blue Vain wrote:
We won by more than 7 goals.
You'd never know reading some of the shit in this thread.


It’s not shit
So we won by 7 goals
Against an average team savaged by injury far more than us
What about the players who didn’t contribute
You can’t get away with that in September


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:50 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Sidefx wrote:
Keogh, usually I agree somewhat with some of the things you say and the point you are trying to make.
But saying Williams is not worth the money he is on, based on his previous position and accolades at GWS is a little misguided. i.e. A Top 3 player from GWS would command $1 mill per year, minimum.
We have had a lot of high draft picks over the last 5 years and we needed to inject mature talent to not only lead from the front but to also help coach on field. i.e. Eddie Betts, while I personally disagreed having him back it was as plain as day on the weekend the influence he has in the F50, even though he didn't really hit the score board.
Williams is elite and will help take the heat of Cripps, Walsh and the other kids coming through.
So far this season his stats are:
Disposals: 19.4 - Above average
Contested Possessions: 11.5 - Elite
Kicks: 13 - Elite
Clearances: 8 - Elite
Meters gained: 344.9 - Elite
Inside 50s: 5.5 - Elite
Effective Kicks: 7.5 - Elite
Ground Ball gets: 7 - Elite
One percenters: 2 - Elite
Tackles: 4 - Above average
Score involvements: 4 - Above average

We now have 3 Elite midfielders in Williams, Walsh and Cripps.
We just need one more and also develop the kids a bit better and we are good to go.
I get your fear, but I think we are in a lot better position than St Kilda with the level of talent our kids have IMO.

Those stats are misleading
Your taking about 2 games not 20
Also it depends where you play
So let’s do a comparison with someone who plays a similar role
Ben Keays from the Crows
In 22 stat areas Keays leads in 14 of them
In metres gained he is 214 metres ahead of Williams
So that makes a better midfielder than Williams
Of course it doesn’t but stats are very misleading sometimes


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:36 pm 
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John Nicholls
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I could say he also delivered hope (so membership so dollars etc) but I know you'll dismiss/ignore hope argument because hope is the opposite of doom.

so the argument so far goes:

Hasn't done it - so you say we paid overs (I say, lets see what he does do)

or

Hasn't done it for long enough (when its pointed out how well he has done) so you say, we can't say he can because he hasn't yet for a whole season or more.


You say, he was paid x (because papers told you so) - I disagree, I have this theory papers make this up to sell papers - I assume you ignore this theory.

I say, we don't know x is paid and do not know how x is paid to the whole group -ie the puzzle of all x's to reach the cap plus that banked etc. (you ignore). I say any x is only relevant (when we know it) in the puzzle of all x's. (you ignore).

and so on.

So you think Williamson is a poor get

I think he was a good get

lets agree to disagree before this turns into 500 pages of ignore (ance)

and wait a year or two - when while we will never know what he is on (unless he tells us) we can at least judge his on field performances (which if they continue like his first two - I say we haven't paid enough).

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:01 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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dannyboy wrote:
I could say he also delivered hope (so membership so dollars etc) but I know you'll dismiss/ignore hope argument because hope is the opposite of doom.

so the argument so far goes:

Hasn't done it - so you say we paid overs (I say, lets see what he does do)

or

Hasn't done it for long enough (when its pointed out how well he has done) so you say, we can't say he can because he hasn't yet for a whole season or more.


You say, he was paid x (because papers told you so) - I disagree, I have this theory papers make this up to sell papers - I assume you ignore this theory.

I say, we don't know x is paid and do not know how x is paid to the whole group -ie the puzzle of all x's to reach the cap plus that banked etc. (you ignore). I say any x is only relevant (when we know it) in the puzzle of all x's. (you ignore).

and so on.

So you think Williamson is a poor get

I think he was a good get

lets agree to disagree before this turns into 500 pages of ignore (ance)

and wait a year or two - when while we will never know what he is on (unless he tells us) we can at least judge his on field performances (which if they continue like his first two - I say we haven't paid enough).


We agree to disagree on many things
Fair call
In a general context I find it interesting in this new age of equalization which exists in the AFL how clubs continue to not achieve success and some do have success more than they should if you know what I mean
To me success is a Preliminary Final appearance
Anything else doesn’t cut it
There is a method to building a list that is capable of a top 4 finish
I’m am actually fascinated by it.

IMO some players are overrated and some are underrated by the industry and their own clubs internally

I listened to a fascinating podcast interview with Nick Graham
Remember him. Was never going to be a star but I reckon he was capable of being in a midfield rotation in a really good side
He wasn’t dynamic but had footy smarts and could find it
He actually holds the record for being dropped the most times more than any other player
22 for your info over a 48 game career
He talked about one game that I remember distinctly
Against Melbourne we were smashed by over 100 points
He had 28 possessions 9 inside 50s and was probably our best player and was dropped the following week
He new his days were numbered and we finished his career there and then
And Murphy SPS have served up total crap in many games but never had been dropped
Kinda makes you wonder what the @#$%&! really goes on doesn’t it
Anyway it’s well worth a listen although I dare say you probably think it would be shit if I liked it :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:44 pm 
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John Nicholls
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Location: Coburg
not shit

but his podcast is his view

not sure why he was dropped, but I'm guessing those that dropped him had other views - like he may not have played the role they asked etc.

As for the rest of what you are saying - its like conspiracy theories really - keep an open mind about the possibility of anything but anything that leads to a closing of the mind - beware.

We have done lots wrong and are not yet the club I would like them to be and I may be totally wrong and we are a lot closer than I think...only time, evidence and an open mind will tell (call it the 'don't get rid of Hardwick too soon' theory)..

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