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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:38 am 
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John Nicholls
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I do not want Harry to be a 4 goal 4 chest mark and that's it player - the rest of you can be as happy as you like, I'd rather a player that competed, every time, not for himself, but for the team. Until we shift from "oh look he kicked 4 goals" to look he fell over again and again and again, look he didn't chase, didn't block, didn't harass...until we change our pathetic hankerings from "ohh look Harry kicked 4, to @#$%&! that was embarrassing the way he fell, the way he let Moore run the ball out, the way he can't mark above his head under pressure," until then well I think we'll have lots of little 4 goal gems and @#$%&! all wins.
I'd prefer the wins and Harry, as our key forward, is and always will be, pivotal to that. 4 goals and nothing else is not a pivotal role, its a lank American's role (and at least he can go into the ruck).

Harry can't, too frightened of the contact and so we play Cas and Harry and rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat...oh but little Harry kicked 4 (pat his bum as he struts past) well done little Hazza, bloody champ you are, I mean that Moore was @#$%&! good but Hazza, you kicked 4! A job well done little fella, now go have a shower and then come back and regale us all with those 4 pearly little goals...

Give me a fierce competitor any day of the @#$%&! week.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:41 am 
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Bob Chitty
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Compare Mihocek's game as a rookie upgrade on fairly minimal coin, to McKay's as a top 10 draft pick on considerably more money.

I know who I'd prefer.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:49 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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club29 wrote:
Disappointed we didnt take those marks we had the sit for in the 3rd. H and Cripps. Disappointed we aren't conditioned enough and stopped to a walk in the last.
I think the Press when up and running is good for pinning it in but crap for adding score. Fake momentum. Seems to wear us out and mess with out minds. If you are the opposition and you absorb it conceding only a goal or two you pretty much have us on the ropes. Once we are done banging our head against the wall and the press bit ends the rest of the game is pretty easy for the opposition.



I agree. We blew the game in the 3rd quarter

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:50 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Dropped my kid at school, straight away 2 Collingwood cauliflower got in his face

Damn you Carlton.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:56 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
bluedog wrote:
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:

Plowman's had two very poor games.




Gee...I am far from his biggest fan, but thought he played well last week.



As for tonight's game...


His best game ever last week imo ... and I have always preferred a fit Marchbank over a fit Plowman.

I don't know who Plowman was on but he seemed to have alot of different opponents: Elliot, DeGoey, Daicos.
The backline didn't look well oiled last night. I think they play too loose when defending. Jones' stupidity doesn't help Plow either.

I need to watch the game again some time today.


I thought keeping Plowman on Martin too long in the last quarter was the difference in the result. No shame in getting toweled up by the best in the game, but that was Shanahan/Jarman like.

As for last night - he played on De Goey one out till Elliott got carried off, then it got a bit murky between Grundy going off the ground/Cox trucking. I thought his last quarter when he was pushed up the ground a bit more was very handy, but De Goey smacked him in that first half.

Too often, we get scored on by leaving Plowman one out against someone he's just not physically suited to minding. Martin had him for strength, De Goey had about 5m on him on the lead. It's an interesting bigger picture that we're scoring wins by having favourable matchups for Weitering, and Saad smashes them offensively, but it results in Docherty being asked to play a lot more accountable on a small forward than he's capable of, and too often leaves Plowman one out.

The issues I bring up, aren't exactly attributes that Marchbank is fantastic for either, and I don't think we can really swing bringing him in as a third tall without losing some of the above benefits. I think the solution is to move Jones into Plowman's role, as a means of eventually moving him out of the side, and play Casboult in Jones' role down back, and Oscar forward. Not the ideal scenario/solution - a makeshift defender and a makeshift forward to arguably replace our best defender of last year, but feel it makes sense holistically, given what we'd be otherwise giving up.


Can Oscar up forward play Levi's role ie smash packs? The rule changes this year appear to have had a massive impact to the game strategies and I am not sure our coaches have got it right. I was interested to hear that Clarkson has completely changed Hawthorns game plan based on the rule changes - says a lot I think. Its more important now than the last 20 years to have players who can beat their direct opponent 1 on 1 and that should be the basis of selecting the back 6. If Plowman has no winnable match up then select someone better whether it be Cottrell, Stocker, Marchbank or even Williams.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:01 am 
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Bob Chitty
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carntheblues wrote:
Can Oscar up forward play Levi's role ie smash packs? The rule changes this year appear to have had a massive impact to the game strategies and I am not sure our coaches have got it right. I was interested to hear that Clarkson has completely changed Hawthorns game plan based on the rule changes - says a lot I think. Its more important now than the last 20 years to have players who can beat their direct opponent 1 on 1 and that should be the basis of selecting the back 6. If Plowman has no winnable match up then select someone better whether it be Cottrell, Stocker, Marchbank or even Williams.


It's a fair point, but I would say that I would be more confident in his capacity to do that, than I am Levi's capacity to offer anything else in that role.

I think Oscar offers a bit more as a lead up forward - he has good leading patterns, he doesn't get in the way of Harry, he's a reliable set shot, and I'd at least say he's worth trying as the back up ruck as Levi was terrible in there.

I feel like Pittonet offered more as the pack crasher of choice last night anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:02 am 
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Harry Vallence
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dannyboy wrote:
I do not want Harry to be a 4 goal 4 chest mark and that's it player - the rest of you can be as happy as you like, I'd rather a player that competed, every time, not for himself, but for the team. Until we shift from "oh look he kicked 4 goals" to look he fell over again and again and again, look he didn't chase, didn't block, didn't harass...until we change our pathetic hankerings from "ohh look Harry kicked 4, to @#$%&! that was embarrassing the way he fell, the way he let Moore run the ball out, the way he can't mark above his head under pressure," until then well I think we'll have lots of little 4 goal gems and @#$%&! all wins.
I'd prefer the wins and Harry, as our key forward, is and always will be, pivotal to that. 4 goals and nothing else is not a pivotal role, its a lank American's role (and at least he can go into the ruck).

Harry can't, too frightened of the contact and so we play Cas and Harry and rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat...oh but little Harry kicked 4 (pat his bum as he struts past) well done little Hazza, bloody champ you are, I mean that Moore was @#$%&! good but Hazza, you kicked 4! A job well done little fella, now go have a shower and then come back and regale us all with those 4 pearly little goals...

Give me a fierce competitor any day of the @#$%&! week.


We didn't lose the game because Harry fell over a couple of times, we lost the game because in the first half our midfield was pathetic at the contest.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:07 am 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:31 pm
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carntheblues wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
I do not want Harry to be a 4 goal 4 chest mark and that's it player - the rest of you can be as happy as you like, I'd rather a player that competed, every time, not for himself, but for the team. Until we shift from "oh look he kicked 4 goals" to look he fell over again and again and again, look he didn't chase, didn't block, didn't harass...until we change our pathetic hankerings from "ohh look Harry kicked 4, to @#$%&! that was embarrassing the way he fell, the way he let Moore run the ball out, the way he can't mark above his head under pressure," until then well I think we'll have lots of little 4 goal gems and @#$%&! all wins.
I'd prefer the wins and Harry, as our key forward, is and always will be, pivotal to that. 4 goals and nothing else is not a pivotal role, its a lank American's role (and at least he can go into the ruck).

Harry can't, too frightened of the contact and so we play Cas and Harry and rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat...oh but little Harry kicked 4 (pat his bum as he struts past) well done little Hazza, bloody champ you are, I mean that Moore was @#$%&! good but Hazza, you kicked 4! A job well done little fella, now go have a shower and then come back and regale us all with those 4 pearly little goals...

Give me a fierce competitor any day of the @#$%&! week.


We didn't lose the game because Harry fell over a couple of times, we lost the game because in the first half our midfield was pathetic at the contest.

Yep and because we weren’t willing to tackle and pressure for the majority of the night. Lost the disposals, contested possessions and then hammered by 25 in the tackle count. Really not good enough and such a bad reflection on the mindset of the players


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:08 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/news/afl-round-2-carlton-v-collingwood-jamie-elliott-injury-sours-lightning-start-for-pies/news-story/79249c1220eae220e0efe7d010777c1d

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As for the rest, Lachie Plowman leaked goals for fun; Ed Curnow’s been shuffled onto a wing and isn’t anywhere near as impactful; and question marks remain on Paddy Dow and, to some degree, Sam Petrevski-Seton.

Ten Carlton players on the night were 26 or older, and another two (including medical sub Oscar McDonald) were 25. The impressive Walsh was the youngest at 20.

They’re far from over the hill, but they’re not the Baby Blues anymore.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:10 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
carntheblues wrote:
Can Oscar up forward play Levi's role ie smash packs? The rule changes this year appear to have had a massive impact to the game strategies and I am not sure our coaches have got it right. I was interested to hear that Clarkson has completely changed Hawthorns game plan based on the rule changes - says a lot I think. Its more important now than the last 20 years to have players who can beat their direct opponent 1 on 1 and that should be the basis of selecting the back 6. If Plowman has no winnable match up then select someone better whether it be Cottrell, Stocker, Marchbank or even Williams.


It's a fair point, but I would say that I would be more confident in his capacity to do that, than I am Levi's capacity to offer anything else in that role.

I think Oscar offers a bit more as a lead up forward - he has good leading patterns, he doesn't get in the way of Harry, he's a reliable set shot, and I'd at least say he's worth trying as the back up ruck as Levi was terrible in there.

I feel that Levi's knee is reducing his ability to play to the point where a change is needed. I am also sad to say I think Murph has lost what little zip he had left. They may of both played a season too long. Will Teague have the courage to tap them both on the shoulder though?
I feel like Pittonet offered more as the pack crasher of choice last night anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:11 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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bondiblue wrote:
Navy Blue Horse wrote:
I think Dow is worth persisting with, but he needs to impose himself on the game more.

Late in the game, think we were 3 goals down, before their final goal. We've got the ball on HBF-wing, Southern side of ground. Dow is inside the centre square just above our CHF, reckon 40m from the kicker. Nobody within at least 20 metres of him. Didn't call for it once, jogged to a contest instead. Needs to want it.


He should be dropped for this, coz he has done that in the 2 praccy games and 2 H&A games so far this season. In other words he does this every week. If he's not fit enough to create opportunity or demand the ball, he should get fitter elsewhere, not on the big stage. IMO, he's not strong enough, nor fit enough for this level...and all the talk that his running has stepped up another level over the summer is crap, or he's not able to read the game, and if that's so, doesn't belong.



I don't think it's fitness, he was already in space. He didn't appear to WANT the ball.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:12 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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SurreyBlue wrote:
Navy Blue Horse wrote:
I actually thought SPS was very good after QT.


I think posters are either watching the wrong player and are confusing him. He wasn't our best but wasn't anywhere near our worst.



He looks bloody slow with his cameo chases....Murphy like chase...looks like he's running a the spot.

I think he's a really good footballer. OOzes class. Needs to harden up and I really don't like him in defense anymore.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:17 am 
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Trevor Keogh

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bondiblue wrote:
BigGartos wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
Mckay good game - no way, not from me, yes 4 goals, but really name a goal he got because of his work, not because of the delivery...oh right that'd be the times he fell over - when he has to work, dig deep and really work, nope not in the contest - I put him on a par with Murph's efforts...just.

Don't know if you watched on tv or at ground (I went) but he was more competitive than you give him credit for: certainly more than last week.
In fact he had a great battle with Moore and I think this motivated him to be more competitive, certainly in the third quarter when he was down where I could see him.
The other big improvement from last week was backing himself to kick the goal.
Murphy on the other hand seemed to have no impact.


Thanks for the insight Big Gartos. I'm glad to get your perspective from the ground. Heartening TBH>

I think dannyboy and some of the others, including me, can't believe how often Harry fell over... yeah, like a drunk...he wasn't pushed, monstered...he fell over half a dozen times. Could you see why that was happening? Something heartening please. :wink:

Basically for no one good reason : a couple was ragdolled and one was worth a free; feet too big?
Part of it is I reckon he knows he needs to be stronger physically in the air and he gets focused on that rather than just backing himself and attacking the ball. I saw some evidence last night he was attacking the ball more. I think Moore challenged him to do it.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:19 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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carntheblues wrote:
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
bluedog wrote:
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:

Plowman's had two very poor games.




Gee...I am far from his biggest fan, but thought he played well last week.



As for tonight's game...


His best game ever last week imo ... and I have always preferred a fit Marchbank over a fit Plowman.

I don't know who Plowman was on but he seemed to have alot of different opponents: Elliot, DeGoey, Daicos.
The backline didn't look well oiled last night. I think they play too loose when defending. Jones' stupidity doesn't help Plow either.

I need to watch the game again some time today.


I thought keeping Plowman on Martin too long in the last quarter was the difference in the result. No shame in getting toweled up by the best in the game, but that was Shanahan/Jarman like.

As for last night - he played on De Goey one out till Elliott got carried off, then it got a bit murky between Grundy going off the ground/Cox trucking. I thought his last quarter when he was pushed up the ground a bit more was very handy, but De Goey smacked him in that first half.

Too often, we get scored on by leaving Plowman one out against someone he's just not physically suited to minding. Martin had him for strength, De Goey had about 5m on him on the lead. It's an interesting bigger picture that we're scoring wins by having favourable matchups for Weitering, and Saad smashes them offensively, but it results in Docherty being asked to play a lot more accountable on a small forward than he's capable of, and too often leaves Plowman one out.

The issues I bring up, aren't exactly attributes that Marchbank is fantastic for either, and I don't think we can really swing bringing him in as a third tall without losing some of the above benefits. I think the solution is to move Jones into Plowman's role, as a means of eventually moving him out of the side, and play Casboult in Jones' role down back, and Oscar forward. Not the ideal scenario/solution - a makeshift defender and a makeshift forward to arguably replace our best defender of last year, but feel it makes sense holistically, given what we'd be otherwise giving up.


Can Oscar up forward play Levi's role ie smash packs? The rule changes this year appear to have had a massive impact to the game strategies and I am not sure our coaches have got it right. I was interested to hear that Clarkson has completely changed Hawthorns game plan based on the rule changes - says a lot I think. Its more important now than the last 20 years to have players who can beat their direct opponent 1 on 1 and that should be the basis of selecting the back 6. If Plowman has no winnable match up then select someone better whether it be Cottrell, Stocker, Marchbank or even Williams.


Its a good debate carna and spooky.

Team defense seems to be unreliable with the way the game is being played. Interesting about Clarkson.

Yep. Gotta have winners in 1 on 1 contests.

Plenty of Food for thought.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:29 am 
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Trevor Keogh

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bondiblue wrote:
david31 wrote:
An observation from level 4 of the Olympic stand: our forward pressure was atrocious. Every time the ball hit the deck inside 50, the Collingwood players raffled it, had 3 easy handball options and then just walked it out of the 50. Just really disappointing. Fogarty tried on the pressure front but didn’t have many mates

.

Again, thanks for your insight from the ground.

That's what it looked like on TV.

No forward pressure...plenty of talk about it.
Who are the leaders in the forwardline to motivate, and demand this MO? Murphy? Yeah right.


Sometimes it wasn't about application/effort but brains. Forward pressure is also a skill: anticipating where to be to apply pressure. Betts is good at this. In the last I think it was, deep in our forward line they got it and 3 of ours (1 was Walsh) were desperate to apply pressure on the ball carrier who just popped it over to another who they left free who ran off.
This is where our team play needs to improve by being smarter. The effort from the youngsters is there, mostly.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:39 am 
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Trevor Keogh

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carntheblues wrote:
BigGartos wrote:
While frustrated with the loss and the inconsistent umpiring the longer the game went, I go to bed reasonably content...
Because I got to go to the MCG on a pleasant night to watch my team against the old enemy with 51,000 making lots of noise, lots of entertaining footy, some emotion and plenty of people happy to be out. The post game walk back to Flinders Street with the moon and the city lights and the bubbling sound of the throng chatting about the game, or life.
After last year in Melbourne, with no live sport and exactly one year now working alone at home...it was great to be at the footy.



Great to hear you enjoying yourself. "Always look on the bright side". You must be a glass half full type of person so probably not the right forum for you. :smoking:

An optimist in a pessimists body.
Yes, I sometimes have to step back from post game threads for my own well-being!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:59 am 
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Ken Hands
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dannyboy wrote:
I do not want Harry to be a 4 goal 4 chest mark and that's it player - the rest of you can be as happy as you like, I'd rather a player that competed, every time, not for himself, but for the team. Until we shift from "oh look he kicked 4 goals" to look he fell over again and again and again, look he didn't chase, didn't block, didn't harass...until we change our pathetic hankerings from "ohh look Harry kicked 4, to @#$%&! that was embarrassing the way he fell, the way he let Moore run the ball out, the way he can't mark above his head under pressure," until then well I think we'll have lots of little 4 goal gems and @#$%&! all wins.
I'd prefer the wins and Harry, as our key forward, is and always will be, pivotal to that. 4 goals and nothing else is not a pivotal role, its a lank American's role (and at least he can go into the ruck).

Harry can't, too frightened of the contact and so we play Cas and Harry and rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat...oh but little Harry kicked 4 (pat his bum as he struts past) well done little Hazza, bloody champ you are, I mean that Moore was @#$%&! good but Hazza, you kicked 4! A job well done little fella, now go have a shower and then come back and regale us all with those 4 pearly little goals...

Give me a fierce competitor any day of the @#$%&! week.


Straight to the point - the politically incorrect Tarzan - Jane analogy....


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:14 am 
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Craig Bradley
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CK95 wrote:
club29 wrote:
Disappointed we didnt take those marks we had the sit for in the 3rd. H and Cripps. Disappointed we aren't conditioned enough and stopped to a walk in the last.
I think the Press when up and running is good for pinning it in but crap for adding score. Fake momentum. Seems to wear us out and mess with out minds. If you are the opposition and you absorb it conceding only a goal or two you pretty much have us on the ropes. Once we are done banging our head against the wall and the press bit ends the rest of the game is pretty easy for the opposition.



I agree. We blew the game in the 3rd quarter


We blew it in the first 1.5 quarters.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:38 am 
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Wayne Johnston

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robertbb wrote:
CK95 wrote:
club29 wrote:
Disappointed we didnt take those marks we had the sit for in the 3rd. H and Cripps. Disappointed we aren't conditioned enough and stopped to a walk in the last.
I think the Press when up and running is good for pinning it in but crap for adding score. Fake momentum. Seems to wear us out and mess with out minds. If you are the opposition and you absorb it conceding only a goal or two you pretty much have us on the ropes. Once we are done banging our head against the wall and the press bit ends the rest of the game is pretty easy for the opposition.



I agree. We blew the game in the 3rd quarter


We blew it in the first 1.5 quarters.


I agree but I also think games at the start of seasons have a habit of having massive momentum shifts. So while we were lazy and hopeless early I was confident we would have our time. Our time was the third but like last year when we have momentum it comes in the form of a press and we pin it forward. We look completely dominant when in this mode. The opposition cant get it past half way. It is amazing... only for one thing... we dont score enough goals. It is a mirage. We really arn't dominating. The opposition sitting back restricting our scoring are in the process of seeing us off. Then we freak out mentally and run out of puff physically and it is game over.

I would love to see us dominate when it is our turn by swarming and controlling play between the arcs. Forcing turnovers between the arcs and moving it forward from there with speed and precision with space ahead of us.

I think we have the wrong gameplan or need to add some more modes to it.

Teague is happy to stick with it and sees it as our brand. He thinks we just have to do it better and for longer. I hope he right.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:04 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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bondiblue wrote:
Are we allowed to have an honest discussion about Williamson on a Carlton forum without getting into a tizz?


If he keeps up first 2 rounds he won’t be in the side or on the list much longer.


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