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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:22 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:08 pm
Posts: 3008
keogh wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Turns 26 next month and is too inconsistent to retain a spot in the 15th placed team.
McAdam the messiah.


We can agree to disagree on many things BV but that’s a ridiculous thing to say given the events of the last few years

How much of our lack of improvement is due to poor List Management?


Well, I would start with giving the kids we picked a proper chance at playing the positions they excelled at as juniors.

I’m speaking specifically about the collection of mids we selected.

To get to the grade all players are there abouts. List cloggers are the exception.

It becomes more about development. And I can see how development can be slowed if I’m a mid being asked to play HB at AFL or a mid who is in one week, out the next and then back in for a week.

If I had one criticism of our list - I would like to a few more ‘mongrels’ recruited


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 1:31 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17567
keogh wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Turns 26 next month and is too inconsistent to retain a spot in the 15th placed team.
McAdam the messiah.


We can agree to disagree on many things BV but that’s a ridiculous thing to say given the events of the last few years


You said it yourself. He was dropped from the 15th team 2 weeks ago. He cant retain a spot and he's about to turn 26.
Yet when I search your name and McAdam on TC, it comes back with 64 matching posts. You must be seeing something 18 AFL coaches cant see.

As for your question about list management, I'd suggest the majority of our issues revolve around list management and list balance. The failure of SOS to recruit the right midfielders and his inability to recognise structural weaknesses within the list to achieve a decent list balance. That is part of the reason Teague is selecting players in roles that don't suit their primary skillset

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 1:36 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5984
Other than Walsh who was number there are question marks on all of them
Mids that is


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 1:55 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17567
Yep, I agree.

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 Post subject: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:13 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5990
Location: Melbourne
keogh wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Turns 26 next month and is too inconsistent to retain a spot in the 15th placed team.
McAdam the messiah.


We can agree to disagree on many things BV but that’s a ridiculous thing to say given the events of the last few years

How much of our lack of improvement is due to poor List Management?


McAdam or McGovern isn’t an either/or debate, I don’t rate either personally.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:00 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5984
The issue in all this is SOS and more importantly why he was appointed.
His previous experience in List Management was at GWS from 2011 till 2015 where he had the easiest job of any List Manager with their draft concessions particularly in 2011 and 2012.
He got some right got some wrong
The ones he got wrong some ended up at Carlton for a second crack
Sumner being one
I personally don’t rate Plowman
Maybe he was the best available
It’s 2021 and we are seeing his legacy good or bad coming to fruition
His appointment had a degree of “ jobs for the boys” mentality
Then there was his exit. Don’t forget incidents like this do have a negative effect on the club .
The club handled it badly saying he had a conflict of interest with Jack and Ben playing it wasn’t a problem before. The club as usual bullshitting it’s supporters and more importantly it’s members and treating them with disrespect

So it’s not just SOS. It’s the club itself.

Whether it was Austin or he was told that this was the path we are going down by someone above him
The recruiting of Saad, Williams and Fogarty looks like being a dumb decision 9 games in on so many fronts
Ironically Fogarty has been the best of the three

Quite frankly the last 6 and half years has been a mess
And the board should take ownership for the poor results
That won’t happen


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:22 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Less than 2 weeks before the mid season draft is held, (after hawks and Sydney game)

Here's a new conspiracy theory reported in Herald sun this morning.

Quote:
Zavier Maher
Age: 19
Height: 184cm
Weight: 82kg

Club: Murray Bushrangers

Position: Forward/midfielder

There is a conspiracy theory floating around opposition club recruiting circles that Carlton might be ‘hiding’ Maher. The speedy and powerful midfielder and crafty forward has been unsighted this year due to a knee injury, which was originally thought to be a short-term issue but has dragged on. A Shepparton product, Maher trained with Carlton for 10 weeks over summer after surprisingly being overlooked in last year’s draft. He missed a list spot then through the AFL’s Supplementary Selection Period, but had been living with Carlton’s wellbeing manager Lillian O’Sullivan and had been given some indication that the mid-season draft could be an option. Likened to West Coast captain Luke Shuey, Maher finished fourth in the 20m sprint test at last year’s Vic Metro draft combine. Some opposition clubs rate Maher highly but won’t take the risk in the mid-season draft given he has been unseen this year, leaving the door wide open for the Blues.



https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/afl-midseason-draft-see-the-top-20-prospects-for-2021/news-story/db33a9f92237e807c164a061c1a85278

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:25 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
This is the type of player we would like developing on our list to take over from Levi.... in a few years time.

Quote:
Jacob Edwards
Age: 18
Height: 202cm
Weight: 83kg

Club: Sandringham Dragons

Position: Key Forward/Ruck

Opposition clubs believe it is already a done deal that Edwards will find his way to North Melbourne with pick No.1 in the mid-season draft. Edwards is still completing Year 12 studies at Mentone Grammar this year, but recruiters believe he is capable of slotting in and playing a few games for the struggling Kangaroos in the back half of the season. An exciting prospect, the mobile big man has a good pair of hands in the air, is a nice left-foot kick and is highly capable both playing in the ruck and as a key forward. Edwards averaged 12 disposals, 3.7 marks, 14.3 hitouts, 1.7 goals, 5.3 score involvements and 107 KFC SuperCoach ranking points in his first three games of the NAB League season with the Dragons.


Quote:
Ned Moyle
Age: 19
Height: 205cm
Weight: 87kg

Club: Oakleigh Chargers/Collingwood VFL

Position: Ruck

A competitive young ruckman, Moyle has caught the eye of recruiters this year and shapes as a top tall prospect for the mid-season draft. A member of the NAB AFL Academy squad, Moyle also won a place on Collingwood’s VFL Development List at the start of the year. He played the first three games for the Chargers in the NAB League and impressed and was one of the top-ranked ruckmen in the competition, averaging nine disposals, 27.7 hitouts (9.7 to advantage), 1.7 clearances and 3.7 score involvements. But it is what Moyle has been able to do at a higher level that has elevated him after a strong showing in the AFL Academy game against Geelong’s VFL side, followed by some VFL outings for Collingwood. On the hunt for a ruckman, Gold Coast might be keen but the Magpies could well snap up Moyle before the Suns get a pick.


Quote:
Max Heath
Age: 18
Height: 204cm
Weight: 94kg

Club: Sandringham Dragons

Position: Ruck/forward

Heath is seen as one of the best chances in the mid-season draft, attracting no shortage of interest from AFL clubs. He was a late draft bolter last year who was interviewed by six clubs, despite having only played one NAB League game in 2019 and none in 2020. The interest has only risen since after a strong start to the year. A very mobile big man with an “intimidating” presence in the ruck, Heath is strong in the air and is also remarkably good at gathering the ball at ground level given his size. Before last season was wiped out due to COVID-19, Heath was seen as a likely starting ruck option for Vic Metro at the national championships. He had 21 disposals and 31 hitouts in his first game for the Dragons this season and 17 disposals and 25 hitouts in his second game. He’s also a fierce competitor, having laid 11 tackles across those first two matches.


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/afl-midseason-draft-see-the-top-20-prospects-for-2021/news-story/db33a9f92237e807c164a061c1a85278

There's big boys out there.

We have DeKoning as No 1 and Pittonet as his reserve.

We need to have a replacement for Levi as soon as next year...even now if we could.

But, we definitely need to have one developing, like the abovementioned, or from the SAFL and WAFL.

Quote:
Michael Knoll
Age: 27
Height: 203cm
Weight: 102kg

Club: Norwood

Position: Ruckman

Could appeal to clubs wanting a mature-age, back-up ruckman after impressing on his return to the SANFL this season. He is averaging 14 disposals, 32 hitouts, including an equal-second-best nine to advantage, 5.2 clearances, 4.8 tackles and 113 ranking points. It was during the 2019 mid-season draft that Knoll landed at Sydney from South Adelaide. Is another opportunity on the cards? Gold Coast, which is without Jarrod Witts for the season, is expected to seek an experienced big man.


I've always wanted 4 rucks on the list. Give our mids a fighting chance.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:45 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
The issue in all this is SOS and more importantly why he was appointed.
His previous experience in List Management was at GWS from 2011 till 2015 where he had the easiest job of any List Manager with their draft concessions particularly in 2011 and 2012.
He got some right got some wrong
The ones he got wrong some ended up at Carlton for a second crack
Sumner being one
I personally don’t rate Plowman
Maybe he was the best available
It’s 2021 and we are seeing his legacy good or bad coming to fruition
His appointment had a degree of “ jobs for the boys” mentality
Then there was his exit. Don’t forget incidents like this do have a negative effect on the club .
The club handled it badly saying he had a conflict of interest with Jack and Ben playing it wasn’t a problem before. The club as usual bullshitting it’s supporters and more importantly it’s members and treating them with disrespect

So it’s not just SOS. It’s the club itself.

Whether it was Austin or he was told that this was the path we are going down by someone above him
The recruiting of Saad, Williams and Fogarty looks like being a dumb decision 9 games in on so many fronts
Ironically Fogarty has been the best of the three

Quite frankly the last 6 and half years has been a mess
And the board should take ownership for the poor results
That won’t happen


We should be questioning the club about its Communication to Members.

We should be questioning SOS about the developed players he selected.

But we should also consider the fact that his choices were limited, or he limited his choices by not finding some gems in the SAFL and WAFL...and Tiwi Islands.

I don't think Sumner is a good example though. He was the extra steak knives SOS had to take.

I think the important question I have is why did SOS HAVE to take the likes of Sumner, Palmer, to a lesser degree Lamb AND give GWS first round picks when the players wanted to come to Carlton? He wanted to stay friends with GWS folk? I have the same question for Austin giving Effendrugs* pick 8 for Saad if Saad was never going back to them*

Saad has been much better than Fogarty imo

SOS has gone ... replaced by Austin (who has a good track record and inherited SOS' list)
Judd is going ...
MLG is going ...

New Assistants coming ...

Change is inevitable.
Change takes time.

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 Post subject: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 10:23 am 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8308
Location: Australia
bondiblue wrote:
This is the type of player we would like developing on our list to take over from Levi.... in a few years time.

Quote:
Jacob Edwards
Age: 18
Height: 202cm
Weight: 83kg

Club: Sandringham Dragons

Position: Key Forward/Ruck

Opposition clubs believe it is already a done deal that Edwards will find his way to North Melbourne with pick No.1 in the mid-season draft. Edwards is still completing Year 12 studies at Mentone Grammar this year, but recruiters believe he is capable of slotting in and playing a few games for the struggling Kangaroos in the back half of the season. An exciting prospect, the mobile big man has a good pair of hands in the air, is a nice left-foot kick and is highly capable both playing in the ruck and as a key forward. Edwards averaged 12 disposals, 3.7 marks, 14.3 hitouts, 1.7 goals, 5.3 score involvements and 107 KFC SuperCoach ranking points in his first three games of the NAB League season with the Dragons.


Quote:
Ned Moyle
Age: 19
Height: 205cm
Weight: 87kg

Club: Oakleigh Chargers/Collingwood VFL

Position: Ruck

A competitive young ruckman, Moyle has caught the eye of recruiters this year and shapes as a top tall prospect for the mid-season draft. A member of the NAB AFL Academy squad, Moyle also won a place on Collingwood’s VFL Development List at the start of the year. He played the first three games for the Chargers in the NAB League and impressed and was one of the top-ranked ruckmen in the competition, averaging nine disposals, 27.7 hitouts (9.7 to advantage), 1.7 clearances and 3.7 score involvements. But it is what Moyle has been able to do at a higher level that has elevated him after a strong showing in the AFL Academy game against Geelong’s VFL side, followed by some VFL outings for Collingwood. On the hunt for a ruckman, Gold Coast might be keen but the Magpies could well snap up Moyle before the Suns get a pick.


Quote:
Max Heath
Age: 18
Height: 204cm
Weight: 94kg

Club: Sandringham Dragons

Position: Ruck/forward

Heath is seen as one of the best chances in the mid-season draft, attracting no shortage of interest from AFL clubs. He was a late draft bolter last year who was interviewed by six clubs, despite having only played one NAB League game in 2019 and none in 2020. The interest has only risen since after a strong start to the year. A very mobile big man with an “intimidating” presence in the ruck, Heath is strong in the air and is also remarkably good at gathering the ball at ground level given his size. Before last season was wiped out due to COVID-19, Heath was seen as a likely starting ruck option for Vic Metro at the national championships. He had 21 disposals and 31 hitouts in his first game for the Dragons this season and 17 disposals and 25 hitouts in his second game. He’s also a fierce competitor, having laid 11 tackles across those first two matches.


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/afl-midseason-draft-see-the-top-20-prospects-for-2021/news-story/db33a9f92237e807c164a061c1a85278

There's big boys out there.

We have DeKoning as No 1 and Pittonet as his reserve.

We need to have a replacement for Levi as soon as next year...even now if we could.

But, we definitely need to have one developing, like the abovementioned, or from the SAFL and WAFL.

Quote:
Michael Knoll
Age: 27
Height: 203cm
Weight: 102kg

Club: Norwood

Position: Ruckman

Could appeal to clubs wanting a mature-age, back-up ruckman after impressing on his return to the SANFL this season. He is averaging 14 disposals, 32 hitouts, including an equal-second-best nine to advantage, 5.2 clearances, 4.8 tackles and 113 ranking points. It was during the 2019 mid-season draft that Knoll landed at Sydney from South Adelaide. Is another opportunity on the cards? Gold Coast, which is without Jarrod Witts for the season, is expected to seek an experienced big man.


I've always wanted 4 rucks on the list. Give our mids a fighting chance.


Only if at least two of the rucks can play forward as well, I remember when we had Warnock, Kruezer and Jacobs all fit at the same time…..


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 Post subject: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 10:27 am 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8308
Location: Australia
I’d say our priority is for a key position player who can ruck, not a pure ruckman. There’s a reason Levi has been on our list and played so many games with his limited skills, the fact he can play key forward, key defender and ruck is an incredibly rare commodity.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 2:10 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 3295
I'd agree. We need a properly tall forward who can genuinely ruck (unlike our current key forwards, McKay and Curnow who absolutely cannot) to replace Casboult.
In the last two years we've had undersized players in McDonald and Moore playing that role. Really, Casboult is a rarity, and if he's 100% fit he's one of the better options for that role in the AFL (despite his shortcomings).
It may be that for the next couple of years that player ends up being DeKoning, but at this stage he looks like a no. 1 ruck option.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 2:22 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:51 pm
Posts: 546
can someone tell me how we can land cerra and still keep our first rnd pick?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 2:47 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
sinbagger wrote:
I’d say our priority is for a key position player who can ruck, not a pure ruckman. There’s a reason Levi has been on our list and played so many games with his limited skills, the fact he can play key forward, key defender and ruck is an incredibly rare commodity.


Agree. A Levi replacement. There's a few above, but too young for now.

Pitto as a Forward as opposed to No 1 ruck drifting forward doesn't fill me with confidence.

Come to think of it I can't remember seeing Pitto play as a Forward

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 3:36 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:45 pm
Posts: 1712
Oscar MacDonald is our Levi replacement ATM.
I think a young Ruckman to help TDK or a Key Defender to help replace Jones


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 3:57 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 5537
Location: Bridge, Starship Enterprise
deano35 wrote:
Oscar MacDonald is our Levi replacement ATM.
I think a young Ruckman to help TDK or a Key Defender to help replace Jones


What was wrong with McReadie. Always looked as if he had potential.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:08 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
deano35 wrote:
Oscar MacDonald is our Levi replacement ATM.
I think a young Ruckman to help TDK or a Key Defender to help replace Jones


True.

Geez we have been decimated by injury

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:09 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Teddy Hopkins wrote:
deano35 wrote:
Oscar MacDonald is our Levi replacement ATM.
I think a young Ruckman to help TDK or a Key Defender to help replace Jones


What was wrong with McReadie. Always looked as if he had potential.


I really liked Macreadie since his first game in the preseason comp. Fearless. Good mark. Quick.

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 Post subject: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:47 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8308
Location: Australia
I guess he was just never MacReadie……..I’ll see myself out….


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 11:00 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
Mids
Small forwards
A key back

That's what we need.


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