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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:18 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Blue Sombrero wrote:
Martin is not quick
Cotchin is not quick
Pendlebury is not quick
Sidebottom is not quick
Ablett is not quick
Hurd is not quick
Fyfe is not quick
Bont is not quick

They are all pretty clean with the footy but nont of them consistently go at 80%
Pendles would probably be the closest.

There are lots of one paced good footballers out there. They compensate in various manners by skill levels, volume of possessions, brute strength, vision.... Martin is probably the best player in the comp at the moment but in 2011 he was still nowhere near the beast or player he is today and he was drafted in 2009. Yes, he was pretty good but he took a few seasons to dominate. Our kids are still boys by comparison.



Yep ! pace is so overrated...............how may players who possess exhilarating speed figure in the all-time great list ? apart from Cyril that is.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:53 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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I don't think it's overrated but it isn't everything.
One of the things that separates Aussie Rules from other sports is that there is a place for everybody, tall, short, fast, not so fast.
Fast + skilled > not so fast + skilled
Fast + accumulator > not so fast + accumulator

The thing is, most of the fastest players don't have the elite skills to go with it. Nor are they accumulators because they are usually outside players who need space, which is a commodity the coaches have spent years trying to deny opposition teams. They are line breakers and goal kickers but the majority of them can't hit up a leading forward at 100%. Yarran was a notable exception to this.

My point about the one paced elite players was really in reply to the comment that we lack genuine pace.

Legendary school coach from St Pats Ballarat used to say,
"The ball covers the ground a lot faster than anybody on foot."
He hated players bouncing the footy but that didn't mean they couldn't run past and take a handball and then dish off as long as the ball was moving forward. These days of players not having a fixed position things are a little different but the ball will still always travel faster across the ground than someone running with it. That's where skills come in. Coaches hate turnovers. Rightly so. O. they need to say to the players, this is your skill. "You run the full 15 and then look for an option 20 metres away by foot", or "Your skill by hand is better than your skill by foot. You get possession and your line coach will make sure someone is going past that can run 15 metres and look for a target down field by foot". I think that's Teague's approach. Certainly is was his stated aim to have the players play to their strengths. From there it's a matter of picking players in positions that will put the team jigsaw in place.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:45 am 
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John Nicholls
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What separates us from the top teams is, in this order:

1) Intensity and work ethic ("lapses")
2) Ball handling, resulting in turnovers.

The first can be instilled and developed as part of culture.
The second can be improved... a bit...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:53 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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robertbb wrote:
What separates us from the top teams is, in this order:

1) Intensity and work ethic ("lapses")
2) Ball handling, resulting in turnovers.

Agreed Rob. Games can be an arm wrestle for periods until one team 'lapses' and the other gets momentum and confidence. It's hard to neutralise it let alone get it going the other way.

An alternative #2, or perhaps a #3, is scoring when you have the opportunities or momentum going your way. We often have our share of opportunities but too often don't capitalize.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:14 am 
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Bob Chitty

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jezzarules wrote:
robertbb wrote:
What separates us from the top teams is, in this order:

1) Intensity and work ethic ("lapses")
2) Ball handling, resulting in turnovers.

Agreed Rob. Games can be an arm wrestle for periods until one team 'lapses' and the other gets momentum and confidence. It's hard to neutralise it let alone get it going the other way.

An alternative #2, or perhaps a #3, is scoring when you have the opportunities or momentum going your way. We often have our share of opportunities but too often don't capitalize.

Agreed. The average skills and ball use are a big part of why we often struggle to translate our periods of dominance within games onto the scoreboard. Another reason is our risk-free ball movement. The better teams have the confidence to get the ball into the corridor so the kicker has the option of kicking anywhere into the 50, rather than just through one flank. Long and slow down the line is too easy to defend in this era of half back sweepers. It generally takes us falling behind by some margin (like in the Richmond game) to start taking risks by moving the ball through the corridor. Need to take the game on from the first bounce


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:01 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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robertbb wrote:
What separates us from the top teams is, in this order:

1) Intensity and work ethic ("lapses")
2) Ball handling, resulting in turnovers.

The first can be instilled and developed as part of culture.
The second can be improved... a bit...


Nailed it. Confidence and execution in the game plan fixes both these areas a little as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:15 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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robertbb wrote:
What separates us from the top teams is, in this order:

1) Intensity and work ethic ("lapses")
2) Ball handling, resulting in turnovers.

The first can be instilled and developed as part of culture.
The second can be improved... a bit...

The second will improve when the first is constant and the opposition is under pressure more than we are.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:36 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Have spare time right now, so was looking through the guernsey history of number 11.
What a famed number. McGregor, Hale, Goold, THE GREAT MAN DOULL, and The Duke of Earl.... what a pedigree of greatness...

and then it falls off the cliff with a range of sub-par players - Lindsay Smith - who the hell was that. Barnaby French I give a pass to as he was a great trier....but Ackland and Warnock...and Kerridge Carlton is a just a journey house for random players.

Which brings me to the present number 11....Mitch McGovern. I know he was carrying injuries, but I damn well hope he respects the players that he is representing. Part of me thinks he thinks it is all a bit of a joke. He seems to have a laconic attitude. Hope I am wrong. Perhaps players shouldn't be given jumper numbers such as 11 until they earn it. Your jumper number is 73 until you blooddy well show some heart son.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:20 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Blue Sombrero wrote:
I don't think it's overrated but it isn't everything.
One of the things that separates Aussie Rules from other sports is that there is a place for everybody, tall, short, fast, not so fast.
Fast + skilled > not so fast + skilled
Fast + accumulator > not so fast + accumulator

The thing is, most of the fastest players don't have the elite skills to go with it. Nor are they accumulators because they are usually outside players who need space, which is a commodity the coaches have spent years trying to deny opposition teams. They are line breakers and goal kickers but the majority of them can't hit up a leading forward at 100%. Yarran was a notable exception to this.

My point about the one paced elite players was really in reply to the comment that we lack genuine pace.

Legendary school coach from St Pats Ballarat used to say,
"The ball covers the ground a lot faster than anybody on foot."
He hated players bouncing the footy but that didn't mean they couldn't run past and take a handball and then dish off as long as the ball was moving forward. These days of players not having a fixed position things are a little different but the ball will still always travel faster across the ground than someone running with it. That's where skills come in. Coaches hate turnovers. Rightly so. O. they need to say to the players, this is your skill. "You run the full 15 and then look for an option 20 metres away by foot", or "Your skill by hand is better than your skill by foot. You get possession and your line coach will make sure someone is going past that can run 15 metres and look for a target down field by foot". I think that's Teague's approach. Certainly is was his stated aim to have the players play to their strengths. From there it's a matter of picking players in positions that will put the team jigsaw in place.

Did you go to St Pats BS? I went to Monivae in Hamilton in mid 60's and played against St Pats twice.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:30 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Location: Half Back Flanker...
tap in 79 wrote:
Which brings me to the present number 11....Mitch McGovern. I know he was carrying injuries, but I damn well hope he respects the players that he is representing. Part of me thinks he thinks it is all a bit of a joke. He seems to have a laconic attitude. Hope I am wrong. Perhaps players shouldn't be given jumper numbers such as 11 until they earn it. Your jumper number is 73 until you blooddy well show some heart son.


This x 1000 ^^^

He plays like he is taking the p155...he needs to look back at Carlton 1993-1999: SOS, Brown, Rice, Diesel, Kouta, Ratts, Braddle, Kernahan, Hickmott etc (there was so many of them...) would burst through brickwalls & play with desperation, focus, strength & skill week after week...they were proud of the jumper and it's history. How could this culture disappear so quickly??

McGovern plays with a smirk and there are a number of others just impersonating seagulls...

Grrrr, where's my coffee??

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:01 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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NTBlue wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
I don't think it's overrated but it isn't everything.
One of the things that separates Aussie Rules from other sports is that there is a place for everybody, tall, short, fast, not so fast.
Fast + skilled > not so fast + skilled
Fast + accumulator > not so fast + accumulator

The thing is, most of the fastest players don't have the elite skills to go with it. Nor are they accumulators because they are usually outside players who need space, which is a commodity the coaches have spent years trying to deny opposition teams. They are line breakers and goal kickers but the majority of them can't hit up a leading forward at 100%. Yarran was a notable exception to this.

My point about the one paced elite players was really in reply to the comment that we lack genuine pace.

Legendary school coach from St Pats Ballarat used to say,
"The ball covers the ground a lot faster than anybody on foot."
He hated players bouncing the footy but that didn't mean they couldn't run past and take a handball and then dish off as long as the ball was moving forward. These days of players not having a fixed position things are a little different but the ball will still always travel faster across the ground than someone running with it. That's where skills come in. Coaches hate turnovers. Rightly so. O. they need to say to the players, this is your skill. "You run the full 15 and then look for an option 20 metres away by foot", or "Your skill by hand is better than your skill by foot. You get possession and your line coach will make sure someone is going past that can run 15 metres and look for a target down field by foot". I think that's Teague's approach. Certainly is was his stated aim to have the players play to their strengths. From there it's a matter of picking players in positions that will put the team jigsaw in place.

Did you go to St Pats BS? I went to Monivae in Hamilton in mid 60's and played against St Pats twice.

Yep. Not only that, I lived at Nauru. Monivae was full of Nauruan kids back then.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:02 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Blue Sombrero wrote:
Martin is not quick
Cotchin is not quick
Pendlebury is not quick
Sidebottom is not quick
Ablett is not quick
Hurd is not quick
Fyfe is not quick
Bont is not quick

They are all pretty clean with the footy but nont of them consistently go at 80%
Pendles would probably be the closest.

There are lots of one paced good footballers out there. They compensate in various manners by skill levels, volume of possessions, brute strength, vision.... Martin is probably the best player in the comp at the moment but in 2011 he was still nowhere near the beast or player he is today and he was drafted in 2009. Yes, he was pretty good but he took a few seasons to dominate. Our kids are still boys by comparison.


Sorry for the late response BS.
I agree that each team has 1 or 2 slow mids, Cripps isn't a show stopper either. (Martin is pretty quick though, 2.89 20m and 1.02 5m, that's some burst power with an elite foot too)
But each team has quick mids that the slower players feed the ball too to break the lines and hit a target lace out. Something we lack.
And I agree on the good paced footballers that lack speed but compensate with skill etc. But we seem to lack that also.
Maybe I'm just being too harsh, but I think we lack 1-2 hard in and under players and 1-2 fast breaking players to rotate through the middle and not in 2-3 years, now.
Close to 80% would be a dream for us. I haven't looked at the numbers but surely we'd be lucky if we were pushing close to 60% as a whole.
I think the biggest issue is not so much the average percentage but hitting targets when it is absolutely vital. We constantly fail under pressure and I get this is because we have so many kids. And this alone is why I think we should've been drafting B+ mature mids to compliment and help protect these kids.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:15 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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robertbb wrote:
What separates us from the top teams is, in this order:

1) Intensity and work ethic ("lapses")
2) Ball handling, resulting in turnovers.

The first can be instilled and developed as part of culture.
The second can be improved... a bit...


To me this is the chicken and the egg conundrum.
I think we have a pretty good work ethic and intensity but it all comes undone with the handling errors and players eventually drop their heads.
How many times has the ball gone from the back line to bombing it in the forward line to then have their defence rebound it, repeatedly.
You can only do this for so long until the players eventually wear out. The failing each time is skills, space and composure through the middle.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:52 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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frank dardew wrote:
Great title this thread :thumbsup: :thanks: :smoking:


Wasn't intentional.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:54 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Posts: 4435
Blue Sombrero wrote:
In 2010-12 we had
Judd
Murphy

Ellard
Curnow
Carazzo
Robinson
Andy Collins
Gibbs
Simpson
Armfield
McLean
Yarran
Betts
Garlett
Houla

Apart from Judd and Murphy, not many stars. They played finals. They played their roles. They ran and carried and blitzed opposition teams with Andy Walker and Waite up forward. You don't have to have a group of stars in the midfield (although it does make it easier), the ones you have, have to be prepared to play the middle of the ground (AKA the midfield) and get it quick to McKay (Waite) and Curnow (Walker) instead of chippy chippy around the boundary a la 2013 onwards. That game against Richmond, they played reckless footy backed themselves forward of the ball and tackled like maniacs. Just like Richmond does now.
There is no doubt in my mind that Richmond learned a lot from that thrashing.

O'Brien is a running machine with a super left foot. How many times has he run and bounced in the last two years?
Cunningham is quick like Houla
SPS is Yarran in disguise with his skills but rarely takes the game on.
Cripps is Judd cloned and thank goodness he is playing for us and not against
Curnow is a better player now than he was then
Murphy is still a good player although he is almost ready to give it away.
Simmo ditto.
Eddie ditto
Gibbons is Carazzo-like
Kennedy or Jack can be Robbo-like
Setterfield can be Gibbs-like
Dow is going to be fine.
Martin is a jet.
I think Charlie will run through the middle like Kouta when he is ready with TDK playing ruck forward like a better version of Kreuzer..
This year's new crop is untried but have good reputations

It isn't the group. It's the way they were made to play until mid 2019. When they are allowed to play attacking, reckless footy and get teams on the back foot, they will make mistakes but things will turn around.

That team of good ordinary players beat Richmond by 120 odd points in Rd 15 2011. The week before they were beaten pretty badly by WCE. That Richmond team was a young version of the one that won in 2017.


Houla wasn't quick.
SPS doesn't have Yarran's speed.

That is as far as I got sorry...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:55 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
Mickstar wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
Martin is not quick
Cotchin is not quick
Pendlebury is not quick
Sidebottom is not quick
Ablett is not quick
Hurd is not quick
Fyfe is not quick
Bont is not quick

They are all pretty clean with the footy but nont of them consistently go at 80%
Pendles would probably be the closest.

There are lots of one paced good footballers out there. They compensate in various manners by skill levels, volume of possessions, brute strength, vision.... Martin is probably the best player in the comp at the moment but in 2011 he was still nowhere near the beast or player he is today and he was drafted in 2009. Yes, he was pretty good but he took a few seasons to dominate. Our kids are still boys by comparison.



Yep ! pace is so overrated...............how may players who possess exhilarating speed figure in the all-time great list ? apart from Cyril that is.


David Clarke.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:04 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Wet Willie wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Which brings me to the present number 11....Mitch McGovern. I know he was carrying injuries, but I damn well hope he respects the players that he is representing. Part of me thinks he thinks it is all a bit of a joke. He seems to have a laconic attitude. Hope I am wrong. Perhaps players shouldn't be given jumper numbers such as 11 until they earn it. Your jumper number is 73 until you blooddy well show some heart son.


This x 1000 ^^^

He plays like he is taking the p155...he needs to look back at Carlton 1993-1999: SOS, Brown, Rice, Diesel, Kouta, Ratts, Braddle, Kernahan, Hickmott etc (there was so many of them...) would burst through brickwalls & play with desperation, focus, strength & skill week after week...they were proud of the jumper and it's history. How could this culture disappear so quickly??

McGovern plays with a smirk and there are a number of others just impersonating seagulls...

Grrrr, where's my coffee??


Yep. Our fears when we traded for him coming to realisation..... :banghead:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:15 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
Sidefx wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
Martin is not quick
Cotchin is not quick
Pendlebury is not quick
Sidebottom is not quick
Ablett is not quick
Hurd is not quick
Fyfe is not quick
Bont is not quick

They are all pretty clean with the footy but nont of them consistently go at 80%
Pendles would probably be the closest.

There are lots of one paced good footballers out there. They compensate in various manners by skill levels, volume of possessions, brute strength, vision.... Martin is probably the best player in the comp at the moment but in 2011 he was still nowhere near the beast or player he is today and he was drafted in 2009. Yes, he was pretty good but he took a few seasons to dominate. Our kids are still boys by comparison.


Sorry for the late response BS.
I agree that each team has 1 or 2 slow mids, Cripps isn't a show stopper either. (Martin is pretty quick though, 2.89 20m and 1.02 5m, that's some burst power with an elite foot too)
But each team has quick mids that the slower players feed the ball too to break the lines and hit a target lace out. Something we lack.
And I agree on the good paced footballers that lack speed but compensate with skill etc. But we seem to lack that also.
Maybe I'm just being too harsh, but I think we lack 1-2 hard in and under players and 1-2 fast breaking players to rotate through the middle and not in 2-3 years, now.
Close to 80% would be a dream for us. I haven't looked at the numbers but surely we'd be lucky if we were pushing close to 60% as a whole.
I think the biggest issue is not so much the average percentage but hitting targets when it is absolutely vital. We constantly fail under pressure and I get this is because we have so many kids. And this alone is why I think we should've been drafting B+ mature mids to compliment and help protect these kids.


I might be wrong but in my view, there is slow and then there is SLOW.

I mean Kennedy, my Lord, is there anything more painful than watching him try and chase someone, especially off the first few steps? Watch him try and chase and you know straight away as a midfielder at least he is a liability. Unless you are a freak like Mitchell who can find it blindfolded, you cannot get by in this game today when you are too slow. And Mitchell is not anywhere near as slow as Kennedy.

Look t is about recruitment and development. Have we got these right?

Dow was a Pick 3. Now to my eye he lacks composure and reliable ball use (the 2 might be intertwined). Is it just nerves and confidence and he will be OK? I hope so. But if not, then that was a recruiting balls up.

A lot of it comes down to attitude though. I mean Cripps was pretty darn slow when he arrived. But he has slimmed down and I swear he is quicker now than when he came to the club. And as a result he has reduced the impact that negative in his game has on his overall performance. Got to hand it to him. No wonder he was made captain.

Look one of either Wines or Z.Merrett (read something about this, probably a pipe dream) would help us a lot.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:24 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
Mickstar wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
Martin is not quick
Cotchin is not quick
Pendlebury is not quick
Sidebottom is not quick
Ablett is not quick
Hurd is not quick
Fyfe is not quick
Bont is not quick

They are all pretty clean with the footy but nont of them consistently go at 80%
Pendles would probably be the closest.

There are lots of one paced good footballers out there. They compensate in various manners by skill levels, volume of possessions, brute strength, vision.... Martin is probably the best player in the comp at the moment but in 2011 he was still nowhere near the beast or player he is today and he was drafted in 2009. Yes, he was pretty good but he took a few seasons to dominate. Our kids are still boys by comparison.



Yep ! pace is so overrated...............how may players who possess exhilarating speed figure in the all-time great list ? apart from Cyril that is.


All jokes aside, P.Matera had good pace and he was a dead set gun, Judd made his name with his burst of speed at stoppages, his mate D.Kerr had a good turn of speed I mean good luck grabbing him once he was off and running.

I think we need to remember, really quick players probably just end up playing forward as juniors, and then they get type cast and set in that sort of role. And we know the vagaries of the small forward role.

A midfielder who has skill, an ability to find it, poise, composure AND a decent turn of speed is the full package really. Nick Stevens was a damaging players especially early in his career because of the running ability he had. I remember seeing him against us at Princes Park one day and he ran us ragged. Got the ball, got the jets on and he was off. Tore us apart. Not lightning quick but quick enough to cut a team up.

That's why we went Dow. We just have to hope his issues are mental and he can overcome them. Playing him at HFF right now is the best thing for him. Get him some easy wins. A few break aways to goal. Confidence up. Then see it where it takes him. Of all the young mids we have who haven't stoood up yet, he is the one due to the investment made and his upside (speed).

So I wouldn't underestimate speed too much.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:13 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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Greatest ever midfield the famed mosquito fleet was not quick but quick enough. Don't need lightening pace to be the best ever.

Ashman
Sheldon
Buckley
Johnston at times
Glascott at times
Harmes at times
Marcou exception -- he was quick

I leave out Catoggio. He was quick but not very good.

I think I have them all.

Keogh and Armstrong a little earlier, but still great players.

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