As long as we have a fluffy white cloud, rainbows and hugs for everyone section too.

While everybody is entitled to their own opinion, as rubbish as it may be, you don’t get to make up your own facts.

McAdam got us an upgrade this year from the 5th round to the 3rd, and enabled us to get the deal done. We never had access to pick 13. We traded picks 26 and 28 for McGovern, and Adelaide had to throw in pick 40 to get 13 from the Swans.

I agree and am thankful you are entitled to have an opinion.

I don't see eye to eye on Carlton list and trading philosophies with best mates, but love the time and energy, but most of all, mutual passion we have for the same thing. Carlton.

Somewhere in the middle is about right, but never perfect, anyway you look at it.
A lot of opinions and a lot of nuances in the views.

No one is an idiot. Not even SOS.

It doesn't matter what has happened.
The only thing we've got to fix is the list for one goal.

Off field with Liddell MLG Judd Lloyd Russell SOS we are in good hands

If you can't see what we have, regardless of what you want, when you choose to not see the value each player brings on the list, you can't plan from current situation.

You will be stuck with the position that we are always going to be short.

Hardwick and Simpson were going to be sacked to appease public perception (created by media and the hysteric), they went on to win the flag the next year.

Setterfield has huge upside.
He has great qualities, you mention them.
His value to out tilt for #17 depends on how the coach uses him, or a better player pushing for his spot.

Pressure on spots is critical to gain an edge.

You are wrong to believe that after 4 years of drafting (on steroids) we haven't got enough kids to make up a team to compete in finals in 2-3 years with good development.

I can tell you a few are up for trade because they have value. The criticism of SOS has been based on where we are on the ladder with the plethora of "infants" Who have to compete against seasoned white back gorillas.

SOS has a quality list of 1st and 2nd round draft picks. Must have at least 10 Top 10s. They have trade value regardless of what you would pay...and they have the pedigree to be developed to play at the highest level.

Right now we have those kids on the list led by Cripps and Docherty. Docherty will come back and will be elite again by 2021. Injury is around the corner for every player in every team. Cripps is proven and huge! With Walsh by his side, it's a big story.

Carlton is a destination club. Not sure? Think about it.
Carlton is huge. The media love them on Friday night etc any day of the week, win or lose.

There's more to look at than Setterfield if you're looking for good signs. Ditto Dow. I'm just a hard ass on them, but you write them off Much too early. They're kids. They've shown signs, as has Fisher and Cunners who I criticise, but, not write off. They have value.

Right now isn't about what we've got but what we bring to help out the big boys Cripps Murphy Ed and Simmo. Because we've got what we got and no one can take that away. They need support with ready made talent for now and when they retire and support the kids who are still 19-23yo and in the lest 8 weeks been winning games.

There's something to work with for any stars looking at Carlton, whether you believe it or not, personally. No doubt.

Keogh, give me your best 22 and point out the weak links in it and where you like to replace to fill gaps:

I'll give you a spine to start with

B: Jones Docherty Marchbank
HB: Weitering
C: Cripps
R: De Koning / Kreuzer
RR Walsh
R: Murphy
HF: Curnow
F: McKay McGovern

Plenty more to add....

ed
Simpson
SPS
Dow
Setterfield
Plowman
Fisher
Cuningham.....

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Pretty much what you say as far as the best 22.
How well we go will depend on the kids on our list and development
That is the great unknown
Just because a kid is a top 20 pick doesn’t guarantee he will be a 200 game player.
Just as I and you say that you don’t put the pen through kids the reverse can also be true

It concerns me that Cuningham gets 3 years. It’s based on his potential. Injuries have hindered his development but he also goes missing in games. To me he is lazy and doesn’t get the intensity on what is required at AFL. This is what one current Carlton player said to me earlier this year
Obviously I won’t name him but it demonstrates one of the many intangibles In progressing from an elite junior to a successful senior AFL footballer
Nobody really knows what will happen with these youngsters but if we don’t start having success in the next 4 years then we will be vulnerable to free agency in regards to Curnow McKay Weiters

Nothing is secure in this caper. At least you try to understand some of my argument unlike most posters
Who have railroaded this site because they are so one eyed.

As I have said in the 2018 draft I would have gone for kids again and not traded away this years second round pick
I also think we lack pace. This is why McAdam was worth a punt
He had calf and hamstring issues this year but with the pending departures at the Crows and a proper pre season I will be interested in how he goes in 2020
Ditto Kreuger

The thing I don't get about your argument keogh, is ob the one hand you say we need success in the next couple of years to stop our stars leaving, then say you'd rather we kept drafting kids (second rounders no less, ie. not a Walsh-like freak), when history proves that such an approach will not deliver short term rewards. You've also written off some of the young players that most consider our brightest prospects. So yeah, right to an opinion and all that, but it does seem that everything SOS does is automatically wrong with you, hence people get a bit tired of it.

I said that SOSs first 2 drafts were good.
I also have said that he probably had the hardest job of any List Manager ahead of him in 2016 given the state of the list
I have also not written much about this issue of late

I go back to our 2018 season
It was so bad that we needed to wait a year before trading multiple picks which included future picks
for mature talent
I will save you the pain of reading about the thoughts I have on the mature players we recruited last year
The club have run the risk of coming up short by sticking to the plan they devised in 2015.

There is an assumption that the young players they have recruited will be top quality AFL footballers
That McGovern and Setterfield will be guns given what we traded away to get them
That Stocker will be a long term player
Nothing is guaranteed
If you read the alternative view from many posters it’s all guaranteed

I reckon the club thought that Cogs was a guaranteed acquisition with the extra 2 million on offer
Obviously not
So what’s left in the restricted free agency table
Jack Martin no thanks overrated
Sos rolled the dice in last years draft
It may yet turn out a positive result but part of the equation was getting a big fish in 2020
and that ain’t happening
We have a first round pick no better than 8
two third rounders and a fifth rounder

So the players on the list now and their improvements will be the telling factor
in what we do as a team in the next 4 years

I know, or should I say, I think McAdam and Kreuger are list cloggers.

They haven't fired a shot because they are not god enough.

If, and when half of Crows list leaves the club, McAdam may feature, but he is and has been so injury prone, moreson than Cuningham.

Don't worry about one players view of Cuningham, which they way you pitched it, is in part a compliment, because he has tools and he did show a lot when he was fit and firing.

Considering McGovern had ankle operation, then a fractured back in the preseason, and I was there to heard the thud when he hit the ground, then rushed in the team underdone, he has proven to me that he's all class. In fairness to him, he was taken out of the team and given the opportunity to get fit under the watchful eye of Russell, and came back looking a million dollars...and he only cost us 2 x 2nd round picks. Bargain.

We need to add a few more big bodies good players to the plethora of kids.
Not all will make it as we both agree, but given the huge number we have, a lot will, hence we need to get a few boafide seasoned good players to add and make us even stronger, let alone give the kids a chance to develop in the VFL and have to fight for spots.

That's the AFL fomula. Of course there's no guarantees.

I think we will win a flag with 4 years...because of the rebuild model we have adopted.

Have another look at that spine...and after this years and next years trade period there will be more spots filled by seasoned proven players.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I keep on hinting that there's players being put up for trades.

Its not just picks.

We have too many kids, and thankfully they are valued by other teams.

...and none of them are from the abovementioned spine.

No one should be surprised. It was always part of the strategy.
Refer to GWS, with a plethora of first and second rounders: they are valuable to the other 17 teams.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Want to mention any?

The highlighted bit is the biggest weakness in your argument. On the one hand there's no guarantee that any of the young draftees we have are going to be any good, therefore we should not go for mature age players but get more young draftees.

Essentially we got what SOS thought were the 1st and 6th best players in last year's draft, for the cost of a 5 pick downgrade this year. It's hardly trading out of the draft.

Your point that people claim youngsters will be guaranteed guns is overstating most people's thoughts to try to bolster your own contradictory argument.

I see your point about Dow & O'brien, however other the stephenson they are no worse than the rest of their draft and it is too early to see what they can become.

I think that your assessment of teague is too simplistic in that he just threw murphy and ed back in the guts to win a few games. There is no doubt we need more grunt in the guts to help out crippa, however we also need to teach the likes of SPS, Dow, O'Brien, Fisher, JSOS, Kennedy etc how to play a role and learn if they have more strings to their bow than what Bolton was doing.

I was a supporter of Bolton and still believe that he can coach, I also believe that he was too structured and stubborn for such a young playing list and couldn't keep going on like we were.

Let's see what Teague can do with a whole preseason under his belt and hopefully a fit list, I do like his philosophy in having players play to their strengths and backing themselves whilst still having a broad structure in place.

That’s a pretty flimsy argument
We agree there is a risk in everything we do
I’ll be fascinated with what Sos does with the limited picks at his disposal and now no cogs

Not worth the effort

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Ok, I get your fears Keogh and they are valid because nothing much has been proven yet.
However, I see things differently and maybe it is a function of my expectations for this point in their respective careers:

Setterfield - I was hoping he’d get a solid year under his belt which he has done. Mot players coming back from a knee reco take 6-12 months to get back to their best. Add in the fact that he is still extremely inexperienced and I think he has overdelivered this year. He will need to build on this next year but I see no reason why he won’t based on his performances this year.

Dow - IMO he has shown great signs of being able to get the ball and get out of heavy traffic against much bigger and stronger opponents in ways that most players can’t do. And he is fast which we need to complement the bigger midfielders we have or are looking to bring in. He needs to build more strength and fitness and become more consistent which is what I’ll be looking for. But he is doing better IMO than either Cerra or LDU who were the other contenders at his pick (some of those picked a bit later are looking pretty strong e.g. Tim Kelly but I think most clubs were looking at Dow, LDU and Cerra early on...)

O’Brien - Underwhelming IMO. Looks like he might become a good ordinary link player but I’m neither here nor there on him.

Cunningham - I was leaning against him but I saw glimpses this year when he got on the park that impressed me. I’m happy to see how he goes. Clearly, the club see more in him than me but I don’t see much cost in keeping the faith for a bit longer.

McGovern - in your equation, Keogh, I think you left out the part where we ended up with McGovern - a player I believe was intended to be an upgrade on Casboult, and certainly a longer term proposition. I was 50-50 on this given Harry and Curnow already up forward but I do think he will become a strong asset, provided he keeps his mind on the job. His brother had to go down a similar road and I think he just scored his 4th AA after playing a match winning role in winning the Premiership. And I think that 2 second rounders ++ was a bit overs but still worth it.

SPS - Still young but I’ll be looking for a step up in consistency next year. His best is great, his skills are excellent and his tenacity/tackling is strong IMO. At times. Hence the challenge with him. But I think he’ll come good.

One thing SOS did do last year is get us an additional first round pick. Instead of having one first round pick last year, we got two. For the price of 5 spots in this years draft which he would have already known was not going to be as strong as last years draft. He made the reasonable calculation that Stocker plus 8 would be worth more to us than this years pick. With 7 wins and after an unexpectedly poor first half of the year, that was not a terribly unsound calculation - in most years, 7 wins equated to pick 5 rather than 3.

I’d also suggest that TDK won’t nail a senior spot next season - I’ll be happy for him to get a few games and show us that he has what it takes to take over the senior role beyond next year (otherwise we’ll need to get another ruckman!)

Bolton - I was a big fan of his and who knows how things might have turned out had we got over the line against GC and the Hawks. However, sport is tough and I agree that the right call was made. And in fact I was glad that it all happened rather quickly when it had the potential to drag on for a few weeks longer.

I’m very excited for next year and beyond. Our 2nd half of the year was not too dissimilar to the Brions from last year. I’m not expecting that sort of meteoric rise but I am expecting us to continue where we left off.

Oh, and as for Eddie, I think he would be a great addition - he is the closest thing available to a Luke Hodge for us given the status he has amongst the fans and players, the relationship he has with the coach, his ability to mentor younger players and not to mention, his relatively modest goal kicking this year was still better than anything any of our forwards could muster...

I would be very happy if we were able to snag Papley, Martin and Betts.

Papley would be my 1st priority but I think he is becoming less likely.

Obviously Wines would be a coup but chances are extremely remote.

Brad Crouch may be getable.

What I would not be happy with is Sam Gray.

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I am as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!!!

No and not fair to them.

Every player should know their teams do enter these type of discussions every trade period.
Some players are untouchable.

The abovementioned spine is for keeps.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Enjoyable read.

Feel the same way.

TDK is a developing ruckman. I'm expecting him to really step up in 2021 because of stregth he builds up from now till 2021 season with Russell's program.
Might have to put up with another year from Kreuzer. Maybe Casboult can become our number 1 ruckman if we had to choose 1 of the 2. Maybe. . We need taps to advantage.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Imagine how boring the world would be if we were all the same dude