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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:29 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Sidefx wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Blue Tongue wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Sure if they are able to ruck or play midfield and land a tackle and have good skills otherwise back to the drawing board again.


Walshy, if we had a respected and successful coach and footy manager we become a destination club, its that simple.


We are already a destination club. No coach would be able to perform without a midfield is my point.

And if he was a good coach, he would've said in both the end of year draft/trade and this years mid draft.......all I want is midfielders full stop.
But he clearly doesn't see that as our problem, in fact I doubt if he can even see any of the problems.
He looks so confused and out of his depth now the honey moon is over.


Why do you think Williams came to the club? Unfortunately for the football dept they couldnt find anyone better at the time.

Sack people and without proper list management it will happen all over again and again and again.

If you cant break even in clearances and stoppages its game over - at the moment midfield is at VFL standard. No rucks and no players that are standing up to the heat. Can't tackle and cant kick not enough skill and hunger.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:39 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Walsh wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Blue Tongue wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Sure if they are able to ruck or play midfield and land a tackle and have good skills otherwise back to the drawing board again.


Walshy, if we had a respected and successful coach and footy manager we become a destination club, its that simple.


We are already a destination club. No coach would be able to perform without a midfield is my point.

And if he was a good coach, he would've said in both the end of year draft/trade and this years mid draft.......all I want is midfielders full stop.
But he clearly doesn't see that as our problem, in fact I doubt if he can even see any of the problems.
He looks so confused and out of his depth now the honey moon is over.


Why do you think Williams came to the club? Unfortunately for the football dept they couldnt find anyone better at the time.

Sack people and without proper list management it will happen all over again and again and again.

If you cant break even in clearances and stoppages its game over - at the moment midfield is at VFL standard. No rucks and no players that are standing up to the heat. Can't tackle and cant kick not enough skill and hunger.


They couldn't find anyone better because we are not a destination club and we haven't been for a long time.
Both Saad and Williams came to us because they were both disgruntled with their clubs and we told them what they wanted to hear to the detriment of the club.
I would take a stab at it and say they would be quietly regretting that decision at the moment.
I think you need to stop blaming the players solely and look at the culture, attitude and direction they are getting from above.
Everyone outside our club seems to rate our list and they all tend to agree it's underperforming even with some noticeable holes.
Even our own club is reviewing our whole football department.
And how can a whole playing group all of a sudden not tackle, can't kick, have not enough hunger etc.
Surely the above should be an indicator of something is not right that is bigger than just the players aren't up to scratch.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:47 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Sidefx wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Sidefx wrote:

Why do you think Williams came to the club? Unfortunately for the football dept they couldnt find anyone better at the time.

Sack people and without proper list management it will happen all over again and again and again.

If you cant break even in clearances and stoppages its game over - at the moment midfield is at VFL standard. No rucks and no players that are standing up to the heat. Can't tackle and cant kick not enough skill and hunger.


They couldn't find anyone better because we are not a destination club and we haven't been for a long time.
Both Saad and Williams came to us because they were both disgruntled with their clubs and we told them what they wanted to hear to the detriment of the club.
I would take a stab at it and say they would be quietly regretting that decision at the moment.
I think you need to stop blaming the players solely and look at the culture, attitude and direction they are getting from above.
Everyone outside our club seems to rate our list and they all tend to agree it's underperforming even with some noticeable holes.
Even our own club is reviewing our whole football department.
And how can a whole playing group all of a sudden not tackle, can't kick, have not enough hunger etc.
Surely the above should be an indicator of something is not right that is bigger than just the players aren't up to scratch.


I think Williams and Martin were more than happy to come to us for nothing.

Never said the whole playing group - strictly midfield is not at AFL standard hasnt been for years, why does it surprise everyone midfield is shit and always has been - with Cripps down on form its really showing how bad that midfield is - 2 good to excellent players out of six occupying the midfield is not going to get the job done. Bookends are AA.

Ed is a machine but his skills are woeful.
Setterfield meh
Dow no where near it
SPS - either chip kicks it 10 meters or gets caught with the ball
Cotterell - a goer and cracks in but not at standard yet

That composition does not look like a midfield that can play finals. Maybe Ed tagging to refrain him from butchering the ball.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:56 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Like I've already said the midfield needs 1 to 2 mature players to top it off.
However if both SPS and Dow were playing midfield for the last 2 years, we could've already had that.
SPS was a tackling machine and Dow was an excellent extractor by hand.
Add Setterfield, Walsh, Crippa, Fisher and Ed and you have an A grade midfield to rotate with Kemp, Stocker and Honey coming up.
But we might never know now with the damage that has already been done to their development.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:02 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Sidefx wrote:
Like I've already said the midfield needs 1 to 2 mature players to top it off.
However if both SPS and Dow were playing midfield for the last 2 years, we could've already had that.
SPS was a tackling machine and Dow was an excellent extractor by hand.
Add Setterfield, Walsh, Crippa, Fisher and Ed and you have an A grade midfield to rotate with Kemp, Stocker and Honey coming up.
But we might never know now with the damage that has already been done to their development.


Dow and SPS had their 50 games to stand up to the heat and failed. Didn't say delist but a very looong reprogramming in reserves unless we get good picks for them otherwise they are deadwoood taking up list spots for no reason at all.

Fisher and Walsh not so much

Honey is coming along - Owies runs from half forward to full back to lay a tackle. Its not all bad but the above two are just not good enough.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:30 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Blue Tongue wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Sure if they are able to ruck or play midfield and land a tackle and have good skills otherwise back to the drawing board again.


Walshy, if we had a respected and successful coach and footy manager we become a destination club, its that simple.

:clap:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:35 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Walsh wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
Like I've already said the midfield needs 1 to 2 mature players to top it off.
However if both SPS and Dow were playing midfield for the last 2 years, we could've already had that.
SPS was a tackling machine and Dow was an excellent extractor by hand.
Add Setterfield, Walsh, Crippa, Fisher and Ed and you have an A grade midfield to rotate with Kemp, Stocker and Honey coming up.
But we might never know now with the damage that has already been done to their development.


Dow and SPS had their 50 games to stand up to the heat and failed. Didn't say delist but a very looong reprogramming in reserves unless we get good picks for them otherwise they are deadwoood taking up list spots for no reason at all.

Fisher and Walsh not so much

Honey is coming along - Owies runs from half forward to full back to lay a tackle. Its not all bad but the above two are just not good enough.

As a question, what's the fixation on 50 games?
I get using it as a bench mark if they were solely played in the midfield but even then, that's only 2.5 years of experience.
Some players develop slower than others and in the scheme of things 50 games is not much at all.
Definitely not enough to start relegating them as deadwood, especially in an environment that can't develop players.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:38 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Sidefx wrote:
... if both SPS and Dow were playing midfield for the last 2 years, we could've already had that.
SPS was a tackling machine and Dow was an excellent extractor by hand.

Add Setterfield, Walsh, Crippa, Fisher and Ed and you have an A grade midfield to rotate with Kemp, Stocker and Honey coming up.


I tend to think similar outcome if they were encouraged to grew into the role, with conditions: go in hard, stick the tackle.
That's how it should work.

They were thrown in too early. Did ok.
Expected to carry the team. Failed with that.
Selected older players to win games.
Dropped them, or played young guys in new positions they were not drafted for.

Give them games for the rest of the year.

I'm ready for SPS and Dow to join Crippa and Walshy.
We aren't winning with Ed, and Cripps in the midfield.

I think Cripps is the one that needs the rest.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:42 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Sidefx wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
Like I've already said the midfield needs 1 to 2 mature players to top it off.
However if both SPS and Dow were playing midfield for the last 2 years, we could've already had that.
SPS was a tackling machine and Dow was an excellent extractor by hand.
Add Setterfield, Walsh, Crippa, Fisher and Ed and you have an A grade midfield to rotate with Kemp, Stocker and Honey coming up.
But we might never know now with the damage that has already been done to their development.


Dow and SPS had their 50 games to stand up to the heat and failed. Didn't say delist but a very looong reprogramming in reserves unless we get good picks for them otherwise they are deadwoood taking up list spots for no reason at all.

Fisher and Walsh not so much

Honey is coming along - Owies runs from half forward to full back to lay a tackle. Its not all bad but the above two are just not good enough.

As a question, what's the fixation on 50 games?
I get using it as a bench mark if they were solely played in the midfield but even then, that's only 2.5 years of experience.
Some players develop slower than others and in the scheme of things 50 games is not much at all.
Definitely not enough to start relegating them as deadwood, especially in an environment that can't develop players.


Agreed development rates are different from player to player.

No real fixation on 50 games but its clear as daylight with elite development coaches around them they cant stand up to the heat. Maybe in future - but personally have already seen enough - put them in the midfield we are not going to win many games, thats what this review is all about, right.
Maybe if we get in a couple of senior quality players and then play them in the middle with good senior players they may have a better chance to succeed rather than cooking them too early.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:50 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
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frank dardew wrote:
He will be lucky to last 10 weeks let alone 10 years if the team plays the rest of the season like it has for the first 12 weeks - the rest of the season has to be fundamentally different -another insipid performance against GWS next weekend will come close to sealing his fate
Every commentator talks about Carlton lacking a hard edge can’t defend and have a lot of talented footballers who are underperforming
Yes the players must take some responsibility BUT WHAT is the coach doing


Doing what he can like all our coaches over 20 years. None could get any drive or motivation out of the group. This has to be a peer pressure thing. Needs to start with the leaders and it's not. Ridiculously, this is actually one of the better efforts in this regard under Teague, at least they are trying to be competitive, which, sadly isn't saying alot. Need alot more player workrate than that still. Even under Ratten we didn't like to defend. We were called downhill skiers.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:59 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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I wonder if we could do it all over again would we maybe give the 2019 caretaker job to Barker. Someone clearly not in the running for the top job.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:04 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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bondiblue wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
... if both SPS and Dow were playing midfield for the last 2 years, we could've already had that.
SPS was a tackling machine and Dow was an excellent extractor by hand.

Add Setterfield, Walsh, Crippa, Fisher and Ed and you have an A grade midfield to rotate with Kemp, Stocker and Honey coming up.


I tend to think similar outcome if they were encouraged to grew into the role, with conditions: go in hard, stick the tackle.
That's how it should work.

They were thrown in too early. Did ok.
Expected to carry the team. Failed with that.
Selected older players to win games.
Dropped them, or played young guys in new positions they were not drafted for.

Give them games for the rest of the year.

I'm ready for SPS and Dow to join Crippa and Walshy.
We aren't winning with Ed, and Cripps in the midfield.

I think Cripps is the one that needs the rest.

Yep pretty much, what do we have to lose now were cooked.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:08 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Walsh wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
Like I've already said the midfield needs 1 to 2 mature players to top it off.
However if both SPS and Dow were playing midfield for the last 2 years, we could've already had that.
SPS was a tackling machine and Dow was an excellent extractor by hand.
Add Setterfield, Walsh, Crippa, Fisher and Ed and you have an A grade midfield to rotate with Kemp, Stocker and Honey coming up.
But we might never know now with the damage that has already been done to their development.


Dow and SPS had their 50 games to stand up to the heat and failed. Didn't say delist but a very looong reprogramming in reserves unless we get good picks for them otherwise they are deadwoood taking up list spots for no reason at all.

Fisher and Walsh not so much

Honey is coming along - Owies runs from half forward to full back to lay a tackle. Its not all bad but the above two are just not good enough.

As a question, what's the fixation on 50 games?
I get using it as a bench mark if they were solely played in the midfield but even then, that's only 2.5 years of experience.
Some players develop slower than others and in the scheme of things 50 games is not much at all.
Definitely not enough to start relegating them as deadwood, especially in an environment that can't develop players.


Agreed development rates are different from player to player.

No real fixation on 50 games but its clear as daylight with elite development coaches around them they cant stand up to the heat. Maybe in future - but personally have already seen enough - put them in the midfield we are not going to win many games, thats what this review is all about, right. :thumbsup:
Maybe if we get in a couple of senior quality players and then play them in the middle with good senior players they may have a better chance to succeed rather than cooking them too early.

This is the part I'm struggling with.
I think we can safely say we haven't provided this as a club.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:45 pm 
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Trevor Keogh
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Seen enough to want Teague out the door


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:00 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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frank dardew wrote:
He will be lucky to last 10 weeks let alone 10 years if the team plays the rest of the season like it has for the first 12 weeks - the rest of the season has to be fundamentally different -another insipid performance against GWS next weekend will come close to sealing his fate
Every commentator talks about Carlton lacking a hard edge can’t defend and have a lot of talented footballers who are underperforming
Yes the players must take some responsibility BUT WHAT is the coach doing


There's your reason why Teague has to go.

I'm more than happy for a hard-edged coach to apply standards and then reward/punish those who don't meet the standards

If players want to sook it up, they can spend more time in the ressies thinking about how much they want to play for the jumper or they can p1ss right off come season's end

HOWEVER...as frank alluded to, we are seeing little or no evidence of an environment that fairly but assertively acts on those behaviours/actions/performances that require intervention (good or bad)

This creates the toxic culture that corrodes player buy-in and sees less-than-acceptable performances on a weekly basis

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:37 am 
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Rod Ashman
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bondiblue wrote:
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/10/will-teague-be-coaching-carlton-in-2022/

Quote:
Former AFL recruiter Matt Rendell is predicting Carlton to part ways with senior coach David Teague at the end of the season.

Speaking on SEN’s Dwayne’s World, Rendell thinks a coach with a “hard edge” and better “footy IQ” like Alastair Clarkson is required to get the best out of Carlton’s list.

“Does Teague survive this review? I’m picking right here, right now he doesn’t,” Rendell said.

“What I watched of Carlton on the weekend, and I know a lot's been said, they need a hard edge in that team, and he (Clarkson) would provide it.

“I don’t think Teague is providing that hard edge in the coaching department. Their footy IQ was abysmal last weekend.


With regards to the list Teague has at his disposal

Quote:
Carlton with a change of coach and a real tough, mean mindset – which we know ‘Clarko’ will provide – they’re a real chance to finish in the top four with their list.”


Rendell is a loose cannon and quote for hire now … but geez, that’s a fair ole public whack for an AFL coach. Also reflects the industry perception of the club.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:27 am 
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Craig Bradley

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Agree Kenny heard interview and is semi-literate and will say things to ensure he gets another media gig
But agree this is what the football world is saying about us Lyon on classified and king on Fox similar stories and combine with what Simpson said about us in the doc last year .
A savage indictment on the whole club and review can’t come quick enough provided it is done properly and looks at all aspects of performance including the CEO and aboard who preside over this mess

Don’t understand why team board management and coaches don’t have adverse reaction to this and want to prove everyone wrong instead we continue to put up insipid lacklustre performances and seen for the most part to be satisfied with them


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:07 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Yep Frank, Lyon basically said we’re soft and unaccountable.
He highlighted Doc’s attempted kick off the ground to sniggers from the panel.
Remember it during the game. And he’s a co-captain …

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:31 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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frank dardew wrote:
Don’t understand why team board management and coaches don’t have adverse reaction to this and want to prove everyone wrong instead we continue to put up insipid lacklustre performances and seen for the most part to be satisfied with them



It's like they feel sorry for themselves & want the world to agree

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:32 am 
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Harry Vallence

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kennyhunter wrote:
Yep Frank, Lyon basically said we’re soft and unaccountable.
He highlighted Doc’s attempted kick off the ground to sniggers from the panel.
Remember it during the game. And he’s a co-captain …


Yes, I clearly noticed this moment and commented on it after the match as symptomatic.
And then I thought about how if a Richmond or even an Essendon* player had done the same thing, it would have been seen as doing anything to keep the ball moving forward.
But the key point is that it was representative of the club and symbolic.

I do believe we have lifted our intensity and effort this year which is one of the reasons why we have not been blown away on the scoreboard.
BUT, we are still soft, take easy options and make dumb decisions both with and without the ball. Our effort is not being rewarded on the scoreboard.

Whilst I am curious to see how Teague would go with a fitter team, and with better assistants, I am starting to come around to the view that a better coach would get better results.
I'm thinking Ross Lyon would be the best fit. Others in the mix would be Clarkson, Don Pyke, maybe Chris Scott. Not sure how Clarkson's Blood bath history affects things - doesn't bother me that much but I get that it is a big thing for many. I actually think Chris Scott is an excellent coach. And Don Pyke was hobbled by that off-season crap.

If we keep Teague and go for a refresh of assistants... I'd be keen on Mark Williams, Justin Leppitsch. Others?


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