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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:06 pm 
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Well I dont really remember what Saints looked like but what I do remember is that Freo played a shit brand of football.

Luckily he had Sandilands in absolute top nick giving first access to Fyfe out of the middle

Had two bites at the cherry at Saints and missed the mark on both.

So zero flags out of three attempts? The most overrated coach in the history of the competition.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:10 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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The Saints were a bloody good side under Lyon. If Milney had attacked that ball a bit harder his record could've been completely different.

And yeah, I know...coulda shoulda woulda.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:12 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Blue Vain wrote:
This has nothing to do with "rash decisions' IMHO.
We are conducting a review. Now is the perfect time to gather the information, assess the findings, make decisions and move forward.

FWIW, I believe the team is finally structuring up well. I take little notice of last weeks result. As I said elsewhere, we'd reached our tipping point with personnel and went into the game with no weapons. We had a strategy of hitting up small forwards which required us to create space but it also exposed us going the other way. Having a tall forward gives our team a reference point to structure up. The small forwards know where the ball is going and the defenders know how to set up behind the ball. When you have a scatter gun approach, if you lose possession, you are totally exposed on transition. We missed our targets and we paid the price.
But what were the options? A full defensive flood to try for a nil all draw? We went in with a strategy which was worth the effort, it didn't work, we learn from it and move on.
We saw the enormous value of having 2 forward targets on Friday.

My concerns with Teague have been-

Playing mature mids from day 1. Bolton played the kids and gave them exposure and Teague reversed that. Did it provide value by creating more of a "must win" culture or did it limit/harm the development of our kids? Hopefully the review will provide answers.

Having a full offensive strategy with little regard to defence. We have been disorganised behind the ball until the last 6 weeks. No connection between the lines and scant communication. Bludgers were tolerated and most importantly, there appeared minimal effort to address it. What's worse, our 2 captains were afforded roles that allowed them to be the least accountable.
How is that an acceptable situation?
During media interviews players were asked about halting 5 goal runs. Responses included Teague telling the players not to go back into their shells and to keep attacking. :?
Teams need more than one gear and having 2+ years coaching the team is more than sufficient time. As I've mentioned elsewhere, a sound game plan includes teaching all phases of the game and how each correlates and impacts the other. You cant teach one phase and expect to sprinkle the others over the top down the track.

So the review has a lot to assess. FWIW, I'm leaning away from Clarkson and Lyon. I'm not sure Clarko will be coming for the right reasons. He seems uncertain of what he wants to do next year. If you're not 100%, you're not what we're looking for. Similar to Lyon.
I think Pyke could be a decent option but that's up to others to decide. You'd love to sit in on an interview with him to see what he's learnt and what he believes could offer. Tactically and culturally.

I'm not averse to Teague continuing but answers need to be forthcoming. We've looked well organised the past 6 weeks. Why did it take so long, what contributed to the changes and are they sustainable?
What were the impediments to our progression? Are they personnel, facilities, lack of resources (Assistant coaches, fitness staff, board/administrative)
Were they resistance or stubbornness from the coach/coaches or a lack of strategic IQ?
If we are finally up to speed with current strategies and tactics, can we ride the wave and progress or will be regress once the review outcomes are revealed and contracts are renewed?

A lot of important decisions to be made and I'm glad we'll be armed with some external views to help make those decisions.
Personally, I'm leaning toward Teague staying with a mentor to oversee our program. Not someone chosen by Teague but someone decided by the club.
Someone who reports to the administration or the board on a regular basis. Whether it be a Clarkson or even a Leppitsch or Leigh Matthews would be interested, I'm unsure. Someone who ensures the coaches are receiving the support they need, to ensure all aspects of the football department are functioning cohesively and the coaches are strategically staying with the front runners. It Teague and co cant function and flourish under those conditions, see ya later.


Situational analysis about right.

Lets hope the Review does highlight obvious problems to fix, and no secong guessing.

I think we all know what some of the findings will be.

My interest lies in the recruitment by SOS, if there is some correlation with the type of players he picked with risk and our ongoing injury list., Not that it matters retrospectively, but may have a big sau in who stays and who goes and what we should target and what we should avoid moving forward.

A Defensive specialist should be a key target as Teague's Assistant if Teague stays.

I suspect this soft cap is going to make things difficult to make changes recommended by Review, hence, my suspicion that regardless of all the talk Teague's gone at the end of this season, he may end up staying for another year because of the constraints of the soft cap.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:16 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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aboynamedsue wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
This has nothing to do with "rash decisions' IMHO.
We are conducting a review. Now is the perfect time to gather the information, assess the findings, make decisions and move forward.

FWIW, I believe the team is finally structuring up well. I take little notice of last weeks result. As I said elsewhere, we'd reached our tipping point with personnel and went into the game with no weapons. We had a strategy of hitting up small forwards which required us to create space but it also exposed us going the other way. Having a tall forward gives our team a reference point to structure up. The small forwards know where the ball is going and the defenders know how to set up behind the ball. When you have a scatter gun approach, if you lose possession, you are totally exposed on transition. We missed our targets and we paid the price.
But what were the options? A full defensive flood to try for a nil all draw? We went in with a strategy which was worth the effort, it didn't work, we learn from it and move on.
We saw the enormous value of having 2 forward targets on Friday.

My concerns with Teague have been-

Playing mature mids from day 1. Bolton played the kids and gave them exposure and Teague reversed that. Did it provide value by creating more of a "must win" culture or did it limit/harm the development of our kids? Hopefully the review will provide answers.

Having a full offensive strategy with little regard to defence. We have been disorganised behind the ball until the last 6 weeks. No connection between the lines and scant communication. Bludgers were tolerated and most importantly, there appeared minimal effort to address it. What's worse, our 2 captains were afforded roles that allowed them to be the least accountable.
How is that an acceptable situation?
During media interviews players were asked about halting 5 goal runs. Responses included Teague telling the players not to go back into their shells and to keep attacking. :?
Teams need more than one gear and having 2+ years coaching the team is more than sufficient time. As I've mentioned elsewhere, a sound game plan includes teaching all phases of the game and how each correlates and impacts the other. You cant teach one phase and expect to sprinkle the others over the top down the track.

So the review has a lot to assess. FWIW, I'm leaning away from Clarkson and Lyon. I'm not sure Clarko will be coming for the right reasons. He seems uncertain of what he wants to do next year. If you're not 100%, you're not what we're looking for. Similar to Lyon.
I think Pyke could be a decent option but that's up to others to decide. You'd love to sit in on an interview with him to see what he's learnt and what he believes could offer. Tactically and culturally.

I'm not averse to Teague continuing but answers need to be forthcoming. We've looked well organised the past 6 weeks. Why did it take so long, what contributed to the changes and are they sustainable?
What were the impediments to our progression? Are they personnel, facilities, lack of resources (Assistant coaches, fitness staff, board/administrative)
Were they resistance or stubbornness from the coach/coaches or a lack of strategic IQ?
If we are finally up to speed with current strategies and tactics, can we ride the wave and progress or will be regress once the review outcomes are revealed and contracts are renewed?

A lot of important decisions to be made and I'm glad we'll be armed with some external views to help make those decisions.
Personally, I'm leaning toward Teague staying with a mentor to oversee our program. Not someone chosen by Teague but someone decided by the club.
Someone who reports to the administration or the board on a regular basis. Whether it be a Clarkson or even a Leppitsch or Leigh Matthews would be interested, I'm unsure. Someone who ensures the coaches are receiving the support they need, to ensure all aspects of the football department are functioning cohesively and the coaches are strategically staying with the front runners. It Teague and co cant function and flourish under those conditions, see ya later.


Excellent post. I’m leaning the same way, but I think it’s very hard to assess coaches without being inside the club - so I’m genuinely open to the recommendations of the review. I’m trying to put aside my inherent cynicism about ‘independent reviews’ because not many are genuinely independent from my experience. It’s amazing how often the people paying for the review get the recommendation they are looking for….

I also suspect the review is more likely to be about structural issues and department performance, rather than a rigorous performance assessment of individuals. So unless Teague is doing something egregiously bad (eg. toxic relationships with others which is impacting negatively on team performance), I doubt the review findings will focus on him personally. A key finding may be that there has been a lack of performance monitoring and development of Teague and his assistants since the Head of Coaching Performance role was scrapped last year. I get the impression that Lloyd has had to juggle the responsibilities previously attached to that role and it has stretched him too thinly. Obviously just speculation on my part.


You raise a good point re scrapping Head of Coaching and current staff stretched too thinly.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:18 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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You have a flair for the overstatement every alternative to Teague is no good or overrated

Clarkson Buckley and Lyon have all with their records shown they are good coaches over a long period of time
Lyon and Buckley missing out by a kick or quirky bounce in respect to winning a GF

If you ask me at the moment whether I would prefer to play the Teague game kick goals but haemorrhage goals and lose and play a more dour style and win games snd enough to play finals I know what I would prefer
However as others said it is too simple to say Buckley and Lyon only coached sides that don’t play attractive football

All aren’t necessary the answer for us but avoid the hyperbole in your assessment which I suspect is seeking to hide your real agenda
Give us analysis not hyperbole


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:25 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Walsh wrote:
Well I dont really remember what Saints looked like but what I do remember is that Freo played a shit brand of football.

Luckily he had Sandilands in absolute top nick giving first access to Fyfe out of the middle

Had two bites at the cherry at Saints and missed the mark on both.

So zero flags out of three attempts? The most overrated coach in the history of the competition.


I don't think they played a shit brand whilst they were at the top of the tree, but did as players retired and list got tired, and up and coming players like Neale were still undeveloped.

Fyfe was really young back then.

Sandilands was the key in the middle feeding De Boer (now GWS) and Stephen Hill (when his hammies were fine). DeBoer was a good mid and remember Ryan Crowley? He was the tagger. Mundy on a wing. Fyfe mainly forward rotating with Hill. Barlow was ahead of Fyfe back then.

Our mids could do with a dominant ruckman: Pitto and DeKoning are far from that.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:35 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Walsh wrote:
Well I dont really remember what Saints looked like but what I do remember is that Freo played a shit brand of football.

Luckily he had Sandilands in absolute top nick giving first access to Fyfe out of the middle

Had two bites at the cherry at Saints and missed the mark on both.

So zero flags out of three attempts? The most overrated coach in the history of the competition.


Unreasonable conclusion. He has achieved much more than Teague, and you rate Teague based on......????

Lyons record speaks for itself, hence he's still in the conversation.

I have no bias for or against Lyon, and feel he hasn't been seen a good fit anywhere, since the sexual harassment at Freo, nothing to do with his ability to coach.

He got both teams he Coached to the big dance.
Lets not forget he was defensive coach at Swans in 2005 when they won the GF. Not many goals scored back then, but he was part of success. Roos wanted to play that brand of footy and Lyon delivered.

Missed a flag by a bad bounce. He's not overrated. He is respected for his ability as a Head Coach.

I'd like Pyke if Teague was given the chop, but mine is just an opinion or guesswork if you like.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:37 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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frank dardew wrote:
You have a flair for the overstatement every alternative to Teague is no good or overrated

Clarkson Buckley and Lyon have all with their records shown they are good coaches over a long period of time
Lyon and Buckley missing out by a kick or quirky bounce in respect to winning a GF

If you ask me at the moment whether I would prefer to play the Teague game kick goals but haemorrhage goals and lose and play a more dour style and win games snd enough to play finals I know what I would prefer
However as others said it is too simple to say Buckley and Lyon only coached sides that don’t play attractive football

All aren’t necessary the answer for us but avoid the hyperbole in your assessment which I suspect is seeking to hide your real agenda
Give us analysis not hyperbole


:clap:

Hyperbole syndrome.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:42 pm 
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Potatoes Tomatoes

These blokes were given five years to build a list and imprint their personality on the squad and have been miserable failures to the point of being sacked.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:08 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Walsh wrote:
Potatoes Tomatoes

These blokes were given five years to build a list and imprint their personality on the squad and have been miserable failures to the point of being sacked.


Anyway, there's no guarantees any coach will win a Flag when they take on the task.

Miserable failures? Don't think so. Theyw ere given a chance and it didn't work out. Getting to the big dance is not a miserable failure.



Teague will end up sacked too.....Clarkson did after 18 years. Does that make Teague the biggest failure if he's sacked end of this year or next?

As you know, there's more to it than just the Coach.

ALL the ducks need to be aligned.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:12 pm 
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bondiblue wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Potatoes Tomatoes

These blokes were given five years to build a list and imprint their personality on the squad and have been miserable failures to the point of being sacked.


Anyway, there's no guarantees any coach will win a Flag when they take on the task.

Miserable failures? Don't think so. Theyw ere given a chance and it didn't work out. Getting to the big dance is not a miserable failure.



Teague will end up sacked too.....Clarkson did after 18 years. Does that make Teague the biggest failure if he's sacked end of this year or next?

As you know, there's more to it than just the Coach.

ALL the ducks need to be aligned.


Point is - we have a better chance to win flags with people with a fresh approach than has beens that have been sacked (failures) at previous clubs. Clarkson, Hardwick, Bomber Thompson, Beveridge, Simpson were all young coaches with a fresh approach. Seems we continue to be the donkey in the competition and pick up the competitions rubbish.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:14 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Walsh wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Potatoes Tomatoes

These blokes were given five years to build a list and imprint their personality on the squad and have been miserable failures to the point of being sacked.


Anyway, there's no guarantees any coach will win a Flag when they take on the task.

Miserable failures? Don't think so. Theyw ere given a chance and it didn't work out. Getting to the big dance is not a miserable failure.



Teague will end up sacked too.....Clarkson did after 18 years. Does that make Teague the biggest failure if he's sacked end of this year or next?

As you know, there's more to it than just the Coach.

ALL the ducks need to be aligned.


Point is - we have a better chance to win flags with people with a fresh approach than has beens that have been sacked (failures) at previous clubs. Clarkson, Hardwick, Bomber Thompson, Beveridge, Simpson were all young coaches with a fresh approach. Seems we continue to be the donkey in the competition and pick up the competitions rubbish.


Good point.

I liked Teague for the same reason, and I like Yze and Caracella for the same reason

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:22 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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History may not be on the side of the likes of Lyon, Pyke, Leppitsch & Voss. How many coaches did not win a flag in their first stint and then become a premiership coach at a different club? Blight & Malthouse are the only ones I can think of in the last 50 years.

Barassi, Jeans, Matthews & Parkin won premierships at subsequent clubs, but they were already premiership coaches after their first stint.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:39 pm 
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I understand that we've won 4 of the last 6 games but SERIOUSLY, have they been emphatic wins? (Saints game was the best...lucky we kicked straight)

Personnel aside, we still see half baked efforts, conditional intensity, massive lapses, one quarter surges etc.

I'm not sold one bit on the last 6 weeks...not from a talent perspective but a mindset perspective.

GC will get a massive rocket this week. Let's see what our response is going to look like

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:48 pm 
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John James
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99prelim wrote:
I understand that we've won 4 of the last 6 games but SERIOUSLY, have they been emphatic wins? (Saints game was the best...lucky we kicked straight)

Personnel aside, we still see half baked efforts, conditional intensity, massive lapses, one quarter surges etc.

I'm not sold one bit on the last 6 weeks...not from a talent perspective but a mindset perspective.

GC will get a massive rocket this week. Let's see what our response is going to look like


I agree. Every time we are given a challenge after a decent win, we fold. Given their past history, not anywhere near positive about a victory next week.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:10 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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I wonder who'll get dropped to rush Ed back in.
I bet Honey or Owies makes way but let's carry Bambi to 300 coz that's what we have to do.
Finals are a big chance let's see if there's any selection integrity from David.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:21 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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clarkson failure....4 flags...failure...such a little thought.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:50 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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deano35 wrote:
I wonder who'll get dropped to rush Ed back in.
I bet Honey or Owies makes way but let's carry Bambi to 300 coz that's what we have to do.
Finals are a big chance let's see if there's any selection integrity from David.

Teague selection integrity was gone from the time he let simmo and Murphy carry off greet superstar Gibbs off the ground last year , when our season was shot !!

And they suffered no consequences for that

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:05 pm 
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Bob Chitty

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azzablue wrote:
deano35 wrote:
I wonder who'll get dropped to rush Ed back in.
I bet Honey or Owies makes way but let's carry Bambi to 300 coz that's what we have to do.
Finals are a big chance let's see if there's any selection integrity from David.

Teague selection integrity was gone from the time he let simmo and Murphy carry off greet superstar Gibbs off the ground last year , when our season was shot !!

And they suffered no consequences for that


yep, wasnt a huge fan of that to be honest ...


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:26 pm 
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Walsh wrote:
Navy Blue Horse wrote:
Walsh wrote:
Navy Blue Horse wrote:
Just looking at our injury list and I reckon 5 at best would come in to last night's team....Williams, a ruckman, Marchbank (dreaming) Cuningham, Docherty maybe.


Williams, Docherty, Pittonet, Betts, Gibbons, Cunningham, Marchbank, Setterfield are starting 22 players when fit and in form.


No thanks on Betts, Gibbons and Setterfield. I'd say after start we saw from Honey last night, Betts won't go again.


Gibbons and Setterfield are AFL standard players when fit and in form


I think Gibbo has reached his ceiling, his future is depth at best.

Setters had been garbage this year, he was decent last year. Thing is there has been a greater sample size of his career that his decent footy is an outlier.


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