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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:47 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5990
Blue Vain wrote:
"The most interesting person there was Judd"

Who gives a @#$%&! about interesting, Keogh? Surely we want people who can do their job well. I doubt "interesting" to you meets the criteria for quality people.

FWIW, I think the board have done a good job. Financials- great, redevelopment - great, membership - great.
Whats more, this is the first board in living history of the club that had the balls to embark on a full rebuild. Not a half arse effort like we've seen before. I give them more credit for that than any of their other achievements.

They appointed SOS who nailed the KP picks and struggled with the midfielders. But I don't recall too many posters whinging about his appointment at the time. The board selected industry regarded people to fulfil the roles. It's not like MLG was calling out picks on draft night!
Too many revisionists around here who bag the club at every opportunity without weighing up against the positives. FWIW, I haven't given up hope. Get a decent development program going, get a decent coaching panel and perhaps we'll see some of these kids flourish. Stocker, Philp, Kemp, they're all first round picks who haven't had the opportunity to shine yet.
We've been a victim of player availability as much as anything else.

I partially agree with what you are saying
The “ interesting “ bit about Judd is that some people get 2 feet in the door of position based on how great they were and lauded in another area and the media go with it.
It hides a person’s deficiencies. We all have them
SOS
Sticks
McKay
Judd
Judd has overseen on the board some of the worst trading and List Management over the last 3 years
Whether he has a view on things like the McGovern or Setterfield trades he hasn’t felt the need to express his opinions
He is soft in that area and hides away from voicing them

It’s a bit like the current health minister in NSW
Brad “ Health “ Hazzard
How can someone like him be a State Health Minister
He was a @#$%&! lawyer
He is out of his depth and the daily numbers prove that

Put simply some people because of their successful past and their pure image based on how they present themselves and how the media portray them to be potentially hide the fact that they are simply not suitable for that job

Then there is the review itself
Walsh has overseen the terrible handling of the salary cap and List Management at Collingwood
Should that not qualify him to be on a 3 man external review
Obviously you need a football person with this review
Why Pavlich
He lives on the other side of the country during a pandemic
I dare say he wouldn’t know much at all about the last 20 years at Carlton

Once again the board pick who they want to suit them
So many things simply don’t add up
Surely after this year there should be changes at the very top that are forced

As for a proper rebuild
It hasn’t been
It has too many similarities to the period of 2000 to 2015
Too many recycled players
Over rating and over playing players
Ridiculous trades
Players getting long term contracts that should be shorter in tenure
I remember one post you wrote that it didn’t matter that SOS recruited Cam O’Shea because he was the 42 nd player on the list
That to me sums up the culture of the CFC
“ Our best 22 will beat anyone “
So wrong on so many levels
It’s what got us into trouble in 2012
Blinkered narrow minded out dated thinking
And as I said before the board has been the one constant
Sayers wants to lead the club and masks the fact that he has overseen this mess for 9 years by ordering an external review on all things below him

The reality is he should just accept defeat like the rest of the board and give another group a go
And members should have the right to vote them in or out


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:22 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17567
keogh wrote:
Walsh has overseen the terrible handling of the salary cap and List Management at Collingwood
Should that not qualify him to be on a 3 man external review
Obviously you need a football person with this review
Why Pavlich
He lives on the other side of the country during a pandemic
I dare say he wouldn’t know much at all about the last 20 years at Carlton


I dunno. Matthew Pavlich? Perhaps not having intimate knowledge of Carlton before the review would be a positive, not a negative.
Recently retired, All Australian in 5 different positions, 353 games played, 6 times AFL club B&F, 9 years as an AFL captain, AFL life member, AFL Madden Medallist.
Works in the media so he understand that. Was an AFLPA delegate/President? for several years so understands that.
He's completed a degree in sports science so he would have knowledge in that area not to mention his extensive experience in leadership. Completing an MBA so should understand the relationship with administration.

But yeah, I can see why we should listen to your views and disregard his.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:36 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5990
Blue Vain wrote:
keogh wrote:
Walsh has overseen the terrible handling of the salary cap and List Management at Collingwood
Should that not qualify him to be on a 3 man external review
Obviously you need a football person with this review
Why Pavlich
He lives on the other side of the country during a pandemic
I dare say he wouldn’t know much at all about the last 20 years at Carlton


I dunno. Matthew Pavlich? Perhaps not having intimate knowledge of Carlton before the review would be a positive, not a negative.
Recently retired, All Australian in 5 different positions, 353 games played, 6 times AFL club B&F, 9 years as an AFL captain, AFL life member, AFL Madden Medallist.
Works in the media so he understand that. Was an AFLPA delegate/President? for several years so understands that.
He's completed a degree in sports science so he would have knowledge in that area not to mention his extensive experience in leadership. Completing an MBA so should understand the relationship with administration.

But yeah, I can see why we should listen to your views and disregard his.


I love it when you get personal :grin: or
Seriously though the qualifications can sometimes means S.F.A

I remember in my last year of teaching we had a consultant who had more degrees than a compass but absolutely no @#$%&! idea and was clearly out of his depth in terms of helping us

Pavlich is obviously an intelligent guy with a strong player background but doesn’t mean he is suited to be on an external committee trying to work out why a club can’t perform on the field
I personally would of had a Melbourne person who has been at the coalface in turning a club’ culture around and become successful
Not necessarily a decorated player either


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:45 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17567
keogh wrote:
Pavlich is obviously an intelligent guy with a strong player background but doesn’t mean he is suited to be on an external committee trying to work out why a club can’t perform on the field


There's no one on the shelf who is qualified to be involved in this review.
But Pavlich is as qualified as any IMHO. Not just from an education point of view but also from experience, in-club knowledge point of view. Not to mention understanding the relationship with administration, player constraints (AFLPA), strength and conditioning departments, requirements of AFL administration, intra club politics and player group culture/team building.
To dismiss him so easily is lunacy IMHO.

Bt that's the way it works too often. Anything the club initiates = look immediately for the negatives.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:50 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5990
For instance was Andrew Newbold asked to be on the review
Surely he would have been asked
He is just one of many who would be better qualified because of what he has actually done not what he is qualified in

My understanding is he is involved with Golf Australia
He isn’t involved with a club
He was President when a club was hugely successful in recent times.
And he is more accessible (even during a pandemic)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:03 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5990
We find out tomorrow what the external review comes up with
But what role has the board played in all the negative stuff that has happened at the club

That’s my point with every post I’ve written in this 112 page thread

How accountable are they?
For years they have escaped scrutiny
That is changing
Damien Barrett has done a video on the AFL website exactly about this today
How arrogant is it for Luke Sayers a guy who has been on the board for arguably the worst 9 years in the club’s history to order a review on all things below the board he has been on.

Media is now publishing articles about pending challenges to the board and how the current board are wanting to change the constitution rules to protect their positions
It’s pretty @#$%&! obvious to me what the common denominator is to why the club continues to fail on field


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:56 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Pavlich is fine . I would have had Stephen Gough and Craig Bellamy with him .

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:21 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
WARNING......LONG POST..... Big day.

There's no right or wrong answers in this argument from where we sit.

Damien Barret reads TC and BF. Yes, that circus. That's where he and his pseudo journo's get their material from.

Lets remember, there's ego's and all sorts of things that go on in all Boards and all clubs.
Not all Board members like each and every member of the same Board in any club.

And that Coterie bloke is raising one point I agree with: why have one vote for 6 different and separate items.
Is that for power or stability? Power? Ignorance? Either way I agree with his point.
But if Coterie joe had told MLG he was going to the media, MLG may have thought to change the framework they planned.
Coterie Joe is as much guilty of creating a circus as SOS and Liddle.

I spoke with a really knowledgeable footy person today over lunch.
He opened my eyes with a lot of new material I'd never heard of. We were discussing Carlton.
He told me stuff that happened back in the days of Fitzroy, Roosy's era at Sydney, then at Melb experience....
Gosh, he even told me of salary cap breaches that never saw the light of day like Carlton's, Effendrugs* and Adelaide's did.
Blew me away.

A Board is never going to be a mutual admiration society as some think ie Boys club.
They are passionate about the club. Carlton people. They want success for Carlton. Silverware.
On a side note: Funny story, there's someone here on TC who nearly got onto the Collingwood Board 20 years ago by a bees dick, till they found out he was a Carlton fan.

Point is, a Board has off field and on field responsibilities. To get the best people they can for both sides of the fence.
We know, the Board has got it right off field. Don't we?
Well that says they have got what it takes to turn things around.

The most important appointment they make is the CEO! Period.
The CEO must make the right appointments, and he does these with the help of dedicated Committees:

Football Manager
Development Manager
Coach/ Assistants
Fitness and Medics
Recruitment

We haven't nailed all the above. They got Cazz wrong :wink: Its an ongoing process. Hence the Review.

Its not a circus. The 3 men in charge of the Review are not idiots. They will find holes. All of them? Impossible.
They have as much chance of finding out the issues that need addressing as the next 3 candidates.
Pavlich may be respected, and trusted by the players he interviews, and the player may feel obliged to spill their guts. Pav's a loyal, good human being. He oozes integrity.
Some of the best and most productive work by Corporate and Business in Australian history has been done in this zoom era.
No, its not belly to belly, but it is communication between2 human beings. One on One. That's what this is all about.

If the incumbent isn't right, then he/she must be replaced till the CEO finds the right person.
That's why SOS' contract wasn't renewed; Lloyd under spotlight; Development and Assistants under the spotlight.
The spotlight is the Review. Not all will get a fail mark.

The coach is under a different spotlight. The W column is the obvious, and with that come questions on game plan, selections, player welfare, player commitment, motivation, tactics....
However he becomes connected to the Review by association with the rest of the Football Dept.
Whatever the findings a lot of weaknesses will be uncovered by the Review.

Its complicated. Winning a Flag is hard. Hawks won one and 4 years later were nearly merged with Melbourne.
Carlton played in a GF in 1999 and 3 years later Collo nearly handed the keys to the AFL.

Melbourne have gone through 3 rebuilds, with the Roosy rebuilding the latest list.
Roos finished in 2016, and finally in 2021, 8 years after the start, with help from the AFL, they are looking like they will make a Prelim.

Its not as easy as overthrowing the Board. A lot of ducks have to be aligned, and they move around all the time.
Some stay, some leave, some fall ill, some have their kids in trouble.

Its great for us to argue both sides, but we are all second guessing as to what's really going on behind those walls
Just like Damien Barrett is.
The important thing is for the Board is to be unified in their pursuit to find the right people and keep them.
Second best doesn't cut it.
The soft cap has put a spanner in the works.

Spill the Board and see where that gets you. Its not that simple.
The club is heading in the right direction.
SOS' 5 year rebuild, will need to take longer and tweaking any plan is a given.

I smell a flag.

If you've got a spare hour, listen to the Dylan Buckley's interview with Clarkson for some perspective.
There's a lot of luck involved, and we definitely are ahead of where Clarkson was with his core group when he took the reigns of Hawthorn.
They got lucky to win 8 years into a rebuild. Lucky. He said it. Geelong couldn't kick straight. They were planning for sustained success in 12 years, and they did that too.

It doesn't happen in 5 years. Reality check needed if you believe it would.
The Board are trying to get it right, to line up the ducks for a tilt to sustained success.

Just because we aren't playing finals as expected this year, you're either glass half full, or half empty. Doesn't make you right or wrong.
We are all second guessing with the facts we are presented with. they are not all the facts to make your opinion the right one.

Go Blues.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:07 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:23 am
Posts: 1566
keogh wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
"The most interesting person there was Judd"

Who gives a @#$%&! about interesting, Keogh? Surely we want people who can do their job well. I doubt "interesting" to you meets the criteria for quality people.

FWIW, I think the board have done a good job. Financials- great, redevelopment - great, membership - great.
Whats more, this is the first board in living history of the club that had the balls to embark on a full rebuild. Not a half arse effort like we've seen before. I give them more credit for that than any of their other achievements.

They appointed SOS who nailed the KP picks and struggled with the midfielders. But I don't recall too many posters whinging about his appointment at the time. The board selected industry regarded people to fulfil the roles. It's not like MLG was calling out picks on draft night!
Too many revisionists around here who bag the club at every opportunity without weighing up against the positives. FWIW, I haven't given up hope. Get a decent development program going, get a decent coaching panel and perhaps we'll see some of these kids flourish. Stocker, Philp, Kemp, they're all first round picks who haven't had the opportunity to shine yet.
We've been a victim of player availability as much as anything else.

I partially agree with what you are saying
The “ interesting “ bit about Judd is that some people get 2 feet in the door of position based on how great they were and lauded in another area and the media go with it.
It hides a person’s deficiencies. We all have them
SOS
Sticks
McKay
Judd
Judd has overseen on the board some of the worst trading and List Management over the last 3 years
Whether he has a view on things like the McGovern or Setterfield trades he hasn’t felt the need to express his opinions
He is soft in that area and hides away from voicing them

It’s a bit like the current health minister in NSW
Brad “ Health “ Hazzard
How can someone like him be a State Health Minister
He was a @#$%&! lawyer
He is out of his depth and the daily numbers prove that

Put simply some people because of their successful past and their pure image based on how they present themselves and how the media portray them to be potentially hide the fact that they are simply not suitable for that job

Then there is the review itself
Walsh has overseen the terrible handling of the salary cap and List Management at Collingwood
Should that not qualify him to be on a 3 man external review
Obviously you need a football person with this review
Why Pavlich
He lives on the other side of the country during a pandemic
I dare say he wouldn’t know much at all about the last 20 years at Carlton

Once again the board pick who they want to suit them
So many things simply don’t add up
Surely after this year there should be changes at the very top that are forced

As for a proper rebuild
It hasn’t been
It has too many similarities to the period of 2000 to 2015
Too many recycled players
Over rating and over playing players
Ridiculous trades
Players getting long term contracts that should be shorter in tenure
I remember one post you wrote that it didn’t matter that SOS recruited Cam O’Shea because he was the 42 nd player on the list
That to me sums up the culture of the CFC
“ Our best 22 will beat anyone “
So wrong on so many levels
It’s what got us into trouble in 2012
Blinkered narrow minded out dated thinking
And as I said before the board has been the one constant
Sayers wants to lead the club and masks the fact that he has overseen this mess for 9 years by ordering an external review on all things below him

The reality is he should just accept defeat like the rest of the board and give another group a go
And members should have the right to vote them in or out


I couldn’t agree more snd the review was only smoke and mirrors as they already know the outcome !!

How can appoint someone like Walsh who destroyed pies list and Salary gap snd they made Ned guy the fall guy

My tip after this review , other than obvious with Teague leaving , is that Geoff Walsh be I’ll be offered a job at Carlton ... now that’s hilarious

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:38 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 6410
Location: Bendigo
Mickstar wrote:
Pavlich is fine . I would have had Stephen Gough and Craig Bellamy with him .

He’s certainly qualified, but I think the crux of the argument against him is that he’s been doing it all remotely - or worse, by proxy.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:43 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Posts: 5936
Crusader wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Pavlich is fine . I would have had Stephen Gough and Craig Bellamy with him .

He’s certainly qualified, but I think the crux of the argument against him is that he’s been doing it all remotely - or worse, by proxy.


OK..........so what do you think about Gough and Bellamy ?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:45 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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bondiblue wrote:
On a side note: Funny story, there's someone here on TC who nearly got onto the Collingwood Board 20 years ago by a bees dick, till they found out he was a Carlton fan.


I thought Rambo Stallone was very unlucky to get found out.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:58 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 6410
Location: Bendigo
Mickstar wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Pavlich is fine . I would have had Stephen Gough and Craig Bellamy with him .

He’s certainly qualified, but I think the crux of the argument against him is that he’s been doing it all remotely - or worse, by proxy.


OK..........so what do you think about Gough and Bellamy ?

If the job was all about finding a coach, then there’s none better than Bellyache to head that search… reckon he’s a bit busy looking after his own shop though.

Gough, also highly qualified, though not completely ’external’. Probably ruled out due to past associations.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:00 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:40 pm
Posts: 5936
Crusader wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Pavlich is fine . I would have had Stephen Gough and Craig Bellamy with him .

He’s certainly qualified, but I think the crux of the argument against him is that he’s been doing it all remotely - or worse, by proxy.


OK..........so what do you think about Gough and Bellamy ?

If the job was all about finding a coach, then there’s none better than Bellyache to head that search… reckon he’s a bit busy looking after his own shop though.

Gough, also highly qualified, though not completely ’external’. Probably ruled out due to past associations.


Past Association's ? Walsh used to work for us .

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:03 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:23 am
Posts: 1566
Mickstar wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Pavlich is fine . I would have had Stephen Gough and Craig Bellamy with him .

He’s certainly qualified, but I think the crux of the argument against him is that he’s been doing it all remotely - or worse, by proxy.


OK..........so what do you think about Gough and Bellamy ?

If the job was all about finding a coach, then there’s none better than Bellyache to head that search… reckon he’s a bit busy looking after his own shop though.

Gough, also highly qualified, though not completely ’external’. Probably ruled out due to past associations.


Past Association's ? Walsh used to work for us .


He was the club at a very different time and the afl
Was different, his recent history at pies , he failed miserably

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:14 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20311
Location: North of the border
Review findings not going to be made public

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:19 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:06 am
Posts: 1826
So it should not be.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:36 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Was one of the review findings to “sit on” the ITK posters on Big Footy and Talking Carlton


:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:42 pm 
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Banned

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Posts: 2333
azzablue wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Past Association's ? Walsh used to work for us .


He was the club at a very different time and the afl
Was different, his recent history at pies , he failed miserably


So he did an inside job at the Pies and you tarnish the bloke. Mate you need to buy the man a beer - what's wrong with you.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:44 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 6410
Location: Bendigo
Mickstar wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Pavlich is fine . I would have had Stephen Gough and Craig Bellamy with him .

He’s certainly qualified, but I think the crux of the argument against him is that he’s been doing it all remotely - or worse, by proxy.


OK..........so what do you think about Gough and Bellamy ?

If the job was all about finding a coach, then there’s none better than Bellyache to head that search… reckon he’s a bit busy looking after his own shop though.

Gough, also highly qualified, though not completely ’external’. Probably ruled out due to past associations.


Past Association's ? Walsh used to work for us .

Not quite the same job as former CEO though.

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