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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 3:01 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5951
dannyboy wrote:
I understand what you are saying re different positions the difference is though their midfield @#$%&! works ours doesn't - so for me before worrying about the niceties of player movement, fix the @#$%&! midfield. If Setterfield, Dow, SOS, Kennedy are genuinely tried in the midfield and then fail then they are not the answer and must play elsewhere or @#$%&! off, but...its that first part - can they? that we do not know.


Kennedy and Setterfield are inside mids who have played there and failed so far
Ditto Dow to a lesser extent
Kennedy just doesn’t get enough ball as does Setterfield as inside mids. They play to outside the congestion
That’s why there in the magoos
Dow simply doesn’t get near it at least Dow has speed
Kennedy is on his last chance
Dow and Setterfield are contracted till 2022
So they 38 games to get it right otherwise see ya


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:14 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:51 pm
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nothing has changed from previous years ,teams get a run on and score several goals .Why because we don t defend as a team ,our players dont run hard enough back to help our defence it is so simple and obvious I recall someone from media saying we are a down hill skiing team many years a go so wat has changed.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:15 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
I understand what you are saying re different positions the difference is though their midfield @#$%&! works ours doesn't - so for me before worrying about the niceties of player movement, fix the @#$%&! midfield. If Setterfield, Dow, SOS, Kennedy are genuinely tried in the midfield and then fail then they are not the answer and must play elsewhere or @#$%&! off, but...its that first part - can they? that we do not know.


Kennedy and Setterfield are inside mids who have played there and failed so far Not right.
Kennedy can play inside mid but can't spread. Setterfield did really well last year as an inside mid. This year he's been played on a wing to make room for Cripps and Williams. Lost form agree


Ditto Dow to a lesser extent
Kennedy just doesn’t get enough ball as does Setterfield as inside mids. They play to outside the congestion Agree, but is that Teague's instruction?
That’s why there in the magoos Don't agree

Dow simply doesn’t get near it at least Dow has speed
Kennedy is on his last chance
Dow and Setterfield are contracted till 2022
So they 38 games to get it right otherwise see ya
Maybe

Teague is the one with most questions to answer imo.

It has been a weird year full of injury and secret mens business going on with Murphy, Cripps contract, selecting players with injuries. No big men in reserve. 21-23yo haven't come on...although there shouldn't be so much of the spotlight on 21yo's.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:23 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Jones seems to have got off easy in post match discussion.
Weiters certainly had a talk to Jones about punching from behind when he could have against Weiters opponent Naughton.
Yet that lack of defensive effort by Jones blemished Weiters record not Jones.

Jones let Bruce kick 5 goals. EDIT...PLOWMAN at least one of those 5.

Talk about unaccountable footy.

Embarrassing way to celebrate his 150th game.

Grow a brain FFS and stick to your primary job: your opponent.

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Last edited by bondiblue on Mon May 10, 2021 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:15 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Posts: 10057
keogh wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
I understand what you are saying re different positions the difference is though their midfield @#$%&! works ours doesn't - so for me before worrying about the niceties of player movement, fix the @#$%&! midfield. If Setterfield, Dow, SOS, Kennedy are genuinely tried in the midfield and then fail then they are not the answer and must play elsewhere or @#$%&! off, but...its that first part - can they? that we do not know.


Kennedy and Setterfield are inside mids who have played there and failed so far
Ditto Dow to a lesser extent
Kennedy just doesn’t get enough ball as does Setterfield as inside mids. They play to outside the congestion
That’s why there in the magoos
Dow simply doesn’t get near it at least Dow has speed
Kennedy is on his last chance
Dow and Setterfield are contracted till 2022
So they 38 games to get it right otherwise see ya


Been pretty even with Crippa and we know how much time he has spent in the midfield compared to them. Our coaches are the issue here and not Kennedy or Setters.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2020

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2020


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:17 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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bondiblue wrote:
Jones seems to have got off easy in post match discussion.
Weiters certainly had a talk to Jones about punching from behind when he could have against Weiters opponent Naughton.
Yet that lack of defensive effort by Jones blemished Weiters record not Jones.

Jones let Bruce kick 5 goals.

Talk about unaccountable footy.

Embarrassing way to celebrate his 150th game.

Grow a brain FFS and stick to your primary job: your opponent.


:clap: :clap:


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:47 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5951
Kennedy has failed as an inside mid
Where he has done best is as a third tall up forward

Setterfield came to Carlton with bigwraps
What was he pick 5 in theAFL draft.
Does his ACL so there are excuses
We gave up a pick in the low 20s( future second rounder) and Nathan Kreuger
Thank god Kreuger hasn’t delivered ( due to injury) otherwise another catastrophic trade

Here is my take on Setterfield
His only real position as a mid is inside. He is a plodder whose kicking lacks penetration
He has good vision in close but simply doesn’t get it enough
An inside mid who consistently gets it under 20 times is not good enough
He lacks strength in close

The big thing for me with Setterfield and Kennedy is they have been around a while
Cripps Curnow and Walsh can’t play well every week
These 2 don’t pick it up when they have to lift to pick up the slack
That’s why Kennedy was delisted and rookied and that’s why they are both in the magoos
They should be blitzing it in the VFL given their reputations

To me they are good VFL players who might play the occasional reasonable game at AFL level

Once again I say
Thanks SOS


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:12 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 am
Posts: 7775
Pros:

Ball movement and scoring efficiency were very good.
Weitering and Betts were magnificent.
Walsh, Ed and Harry good.
Another good performance from Cuningham. High impact player. Love to see him find it more.
Cottrell did an excellent job on the staging, cheating Hunter.
Another very encouraging performance from Owies.
Some beautiful long passes at kick ins from Stocker.

Cons:

Wasted opportunity. Still don't really believe they can beat good sides.
Injuries really accumulating.
Smashed in clearances and midfield ran out of legs.
Conceded a score over 100 again.
The opposition seemed to get a remarkable amount of scores from free kicks. Also helps when you're allowed to throw the ball at will.
I thought last week was the worst I've seen Cripps play. Now I'm not so sure. Looks like he needs a break from the responsibility of being captain (or something). Has always been a ball magnet, and elite at distributing by hand. Both areas have been very, very poor the last 2 rounds.
I know he's getting paid a packet, but Williams looks like he's really sore.
Like what SOJ adds, but his goalkicking is horrible.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:13 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5990
Location: Melbourne
keogh wrote:
Kennedy has failed as an inside mid
Where he has done best is as a third tall up forward

Setterfield came to Carlton with bigwraps
What was he pick 5 in theAFL draft.
Does his ACL so there are excuses
We gave up a pick in the low 20s( future second rounder) and Nathan Kreuger
Thank god Kreuger hasn’t delivered ( due to injury) otherwise another catastrophic trade

Here is my take on Setterfield
His only real position as a mid is inside. He is a plodder whose kicking lacks penetration
He has good vision in close but simply doesn’t get it enough
An inside mid who consistently gets it under 20 times is not good enough
He lacks strength in close

The big thing for me with Setterfield and Kennedy is they have been around a while
Cripps Curnow and Walsh can’t play well every week
These 2 don’t pick it up when they have to lift to pick up the slack
That’s why Kennedy was delisted and rookied and that’s why they are both in the magoos
They should be blitzing it in the VFL given their reputations

To me they are good VFL players who might play the occasional reasonable game at AFL level

Once again I say
Thanks SOS


So basically Setters is a poor mans Cripps.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:09 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Last nigh during ON THE COACH they showed vision of Jones and his complete neglect of his duty on the last line of defense. He didnt even look back once whilst he was in no mans land ball watching whilst his opponent wa standing in the square and eventually the ball got to him and kicked a goal.

Basically they were saying Jones is a dumb footballer. Ignorant. Unaware. Undisciplined.

They also showed footage of the mark he allowed Naughton to take when he should have punched it.

Its the lack of discipline and attention to 101 defense which is an eye opener.

Has Teague lost his players?
Has Teague allowed his Defenders to do as they please?
Has Teague thrown out a Defensive side of our game plan since Bolton got sacked? Looks like it.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:11 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
Kennedy has failed as an inside mid
Where he has done best is as a third tall up forward

Setterfield came to Carlton with bigwraps
What was he pick 5 in theAFL draft.
Does his ACL so there are excuses
We gave up a pick in the low 20s( future second rounder) and Nathan Kreuger
Thank god Kreuger hasn’t delivered ( due to injury) otherwise another catastrophic trade

Here is my take on Setterfield
His only real position as a mid is inside. He is a plodder whose kicking lacks penetration
He has good vision in close but simply doesn’t get it enough
An inside mid who consistently gets it under 20 times is not good enough
He lacks strength in close

The big thing for me with Setterfield and Kennedy is they have been around a while
Cripps Curnow and Walsh can’t play well every week
These 2 don’t pick it up when they have to lift to pick up the slack
That’s why Kennedy was delisted and rookied and that’s why they are both in the magoos
They should be blitzing it in the VFL given their reputations

To me they are good VFL players who might play the occasional reasonable game at AFL level

Once again I say
Thanks SOS


Good explanation on Setterfield and Kennedy.
I hope you're wrong about Setterfield, but I can certainly see the plodding part of his persona instead of attacking the loose ball with gusto as an inside mid should..like Adams of the Pies....I think maybe Stocker is that guy.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:12 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Location: Bondi Beach
Stefchook wrote:
Pros:

Ball movement and scoring efficiency were very good.
Weitering and Betts were magnificent.
Walsh, Ed and Harry good.
Another good performance from Cuningham. High impact player. Love to see him find it more.
Cottrell did an excellent job on the staging, cheating Hunter.
Another very encouraging performance from Owies.
Some beautiful long passes at kick ins from Stocker.

Cons:

Wasted opportunity. Still don't really believe they can beat good sides.
Injuries really accumulating.
Smashed in clearances and midfield ran out of legs.
Conceded a score over 100 again.
The opposition seemed to get a remarkable amount of scores from free kicks. Also helps when you're allowed to throw the ball at will.
I thought last week was the worst I've seen Cripps play. Now I'm not so sure. Looks like he needs a break from the responsibility of being captain (or something). Has always been a ball magnet, and elite at distributing by hand. Both areas have been very, very poor the last 2 rounds.
I know he's getting paid a packet, but Williams looks like he's really sore.
Like what SOJ adds, but his goalkicking is horrible.


Spot on Stefchook.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:39 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Posts: 2450
aboynamedsue wrote:
Speaking of crucial misses, the two by Williams & McKay towards the end of the 3 quarter. We were 25 points ahead and you could sense the Dogs were lifting. We kick those goals, it becomes a 37 point lead and I reckon we would have had the confidence to go on with it from there. They weren’t sodas, but both were gettable.

Anyway, the usual overreactions from the usual posters after the game. Yes, losing absolutely sucks and nobody is happy about it - but there are positives to be found amongst the disappointment.

The sky is not falling in. The simple fact is that there’s plenty of improvement required before we are a top side.



Thankyou!
:thanks:


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:49 am 
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Rod Ashman
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17th Premiership wrote:
Firstly, we should be wary off what other teams are being praised for - this shifts and turns entirely on results which are likely most affected by other things.
e.g. Bulldogs are being praised for their player versatility now but were being questioned on the same point over the past few seasons. I don't think Crippa is much chop as a forward - for starters, his set shot kicking is terrible.

The Saints had leapfrogged the Dees just last year, after the Dees leapfrogged them the year before (or maybe it was the year before that). The Dees list wasn't much chop and their midfield was full of one-paced players. That was a whole 10 games ago.

We are playing very well for longer periods in matches than last year but still unable to slow things down or stem the tide when the opposition gets on top. Still, we haven't lost by more than 5 goals. Against top teams Bulldogs, Port, Richmond and Brisbane. We should have beaten the Dogs but couldn't hold it together when they lifted. We definitely should not have lost to the Pies but that was their best match for the year when their intensity was highest and their best players on the park. But we should have won.

I see us progressing but more like Melbourne and StK have over the past few years than the Lions who suddenly jumped to top 4 a couple of years ago (which they couldn't sustain through the finals - and I note that Teague spoke about us aiming to be a top 4 team which is correct; and then being criticised b/c we need to be a top 8 team first...).

We are applying good intensity for most of the time this season and yesterday we added some great composure until half way through the third. After that, I felt we lifted the foot off the gas just a little and the mistakes crept in (sloppy handballs and kicks) and then it just got worse from there. These are things we can fix although requires mental fortitude. And more fitness from more players.

Finally, the scores for Vs against is a bit misleading. Yes, we have let through a lot but, again, we have not once been smashed. Unlike Geelong, West Coast, Richmond or Port Adelaide.

I don't think we should drop Williams if fitness, rather than injury, is his issue. He will be better for the run. However, he should play mostly off half back until he proves himself fit enough to run out a game on the ball. I'd give Stocker more of a go in the middle. I'd bring in TDK for JSOS and possibly give Casboult a couple of weeks to rest his knee. And I'd include 2 of Dow, SPS, and Murphy. We should only drop Cripps if he has an injury that will improve with a week or two rest. Otherwise, he needs to work through this. He definitely looks out of sorts - I was expecting him to lift us over the line in the last quarter but he just couldn't manage it.

For me:
Out: JSOS (concussion), Gibbons, Newnes, Casboult
In: TDK, Dow, SPS, Newman

(And Setterfield for Cripps if Cripps needs a break.)

Williams goes to Half Back, Stocker joins the midfield rotation with Walsh, Cripps, Dow, SPS, & Cunningham (who has looked good but now needs to get more of the ball).

PS. I am not expecting Dow to come in and be the difference just yet. Some are talking him up as the messiah b/c he got a few clearances in the early stages of last week. That was good but he needs to be able to do that for 4 quarters and with good disposal.

Nice post.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:27 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Here's more on the exposure of our slack defense against the Doggies, from OTC

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-liam-jones-carlton-defensive-issues-video-garry-lyon-gerard-healy-on-the-couch/news-story/42d6224216ad186dfbaf8dbade898124

Quote:
“If you can hang with the Bulldogs for three quarters, you‘re not that far away if you address your defence. And their defence, it stands out,” Brownlow Medallist Healy told Fox Footy’s On The Couch.
“They concede so many consecutive goals week-in, week-out that they haven‘t got a plan to go back and get stability behind the ball.
“If you have a look at some of this vision on defence, there is clearly an issue with the defensive coach, which then shoots back to the senior coach.”


Quote:
Healy then pointed to behind-the-goals vision from Sunday’s game, highlighting how co-captain Sam Docherty left his Bulldogs opponent after the Blues won a centre clearance but didn’t run with him when the Bulldogs won the ball back on turnover. The decision created a domino effect, with other Carlton defenders leaving their men to man up other free Bulldogs players.
Instead of sprinting back into his defensive 50 to provide an extra number, Docherty hung around centre half-back. Ultimately, Bulldogs forward Josh Bruce was left alone inside 50 and took an uncontested mark in the forward pocket.
“He (Docherty) needs to start understanding – and he would know this but he doesn’t act – he has got to charge back there because, inevitably, you‘re going to be one man short – and that’s how it plays out,” Healy said.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:29 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Location: Bondi Beach
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-liam-jones-carlton-defensive-issues-video-garry-lyon-gerard-healy-on-the-couch/news-story/42d6224216ad186dfbaf8dbade898124

Quote:
Healy’s second example featuring Liam Jones, however, was more damning.

As the Blues launched a counter-attack play from defence, Jones was covering space at centre half-back. However he didn’t appear to look behind him into the defensive 50, where Bulldog Pat Lipinski was unmarked and the closest player – of any team – to goal.
“That needs to be addressed by Liam Jones and yet he’s observing and observing and they’ve got this loose man in the forward line that’s unheard of,” Healy told On The Couch.
“This is unforgivable – and I look at this and why I don’t think Carlton are that far away. These are fixable issues because it’s not about ability, it’s about concentration.”

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:30 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-liam-jones-carlton-defensive-issues-video-garry-lyon-gerard-healy-on-the-couch/news-story/42d6224216ad186dfbaf8dbade898124

Quote:
Melbourne champion Lyon was particularly scathing of Jones’ effort.

“I think Liam Jones, one-on-one, does a wonderful job. But how long do you keep going to the well with someone that is in a situation where it‘s game-defining and … that is a staggering piece of a vision for a man who’s supposed to be the cornerstone of your defence,” Lyon told On The Couch. “He doesn’t turn his head. All he had to do was turn his head.
“I don’t want to make Liam Jones the scapegoat, but it can be fixed by doing what an Under 12 kid is taught to do. When the ball’s in dispute and it‘s a game on the line and he’s the full-back, you don’t wander aimlessly out to centre half-back with no awareness of what’s behind you.
“Carlton supporters are sitting at home going: ‘Why? Why? Why? How’s it happened?’ Well because you’ve got dumb instances like that. That’s why it happens.”


The word he uses is DUMB to describe Jones' decision to ignore the backline.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:36 am 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:40 pm
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Jones has actually conceded goals in both of his last two games against Bruce and Hooker. He's also played some decent footy in both those games. It's been a few weeks since his balance of attack and defence has worked.

And yes, we played Docherty on a wing at stages on Sunday with the intention of his folding back to be a spare man. A lot of the time it worked (he got 31 touches)... but when it doesn't work it can hurt us. We do play a zone defence that relies on the midfield either winning the ball or forcing a quick kick to a waiting defender. When we lose the contest, defenders can get caught out between opposition players, unsure whether to stick to their man or move to the next player. This is why we coughed up so many goals early against Essendon* - both Jones and Weitering were occupying space rather than standing next to their man for long periods.

So, as always.... it comes down to the midfield.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:42 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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bondiblue wrote:
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-liam-jones-carlton-defensive-issues-video-garry-lyon-gerard-healy-on-the-couch/news-story/42d6224216ad186dfbaf8dbade898124

Quote:
Melbourne champion Lyon was particularly scathing of Jones’ effort.

“I think Liam Jones, one-on-one, does a wonderful job. But how long do you keep going to the well with someone that is in a situation where it‘s game-defining and … that is a staggering piece of a vision for a man who’s supposed to be the cornerstone of your defence,” Lyon told On The Couch. “He doesn’t turn his head. All he had to do was turn his head.
“I don’t want to make Liam Jones the scapegoat, but it can be fixed by doing what an Under 12 kid is taught to do. When the ball’s in dispute and it‘s a game on the line and he’s the full-back, you don’t wander aimlessly out to centre half-back with no awareness of what’s behind you.
“Carlton supporters are sitting at home going: ‘Why? Why? Why? How’s it happened?’ Well because you’ve got dumb instances like that. That’s why it happens.”


The word he uses is DUMB to describe Jones' decision to ignore the backline.


Someone on twitter responded to this with:

"For context (which doesn’t seem to matter at Fox) Carlton are 16 points down at the 26 min mark of the last quarter.

I daresay Jones is waiting for the potential switch kick if they win back possession to attack up the middle of the ground.

Carlton need 3 goals in 4 mins."


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:14 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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verbs wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-liam-jones-carlton-defensive-issues-video-garry-lyon-gerard-healy-on-the-couch/news-story/42d6224216ad186dfbaf8dbade898124

Quote:
Melbourne champion Lyon was particularly scathing of Jones’ effort.

“I think Liam Jones, one-on-one, does a wonderful job. But how long do you keep going to the well with someone that is in a situation where it‘s game-defining and … that is a staggering piece of a vision for a man who’s supposed to be the cornerstone of your defence,” Lyon told On The Couch. “He doesn’t turn his head. All he had to do was turn his head.
“I don’t want to make Liam Jones the scapegoat, but it can be fixed by doing what an Under 12 kid is taught to do. When the ball’s in dispute and it‘s a game on the line and he’s the full-back, you don’t wander aimlessly out to centre half-back with no awareness of what’s behind you.
“Carlton supporters are sitting at home going: ‘Why? Why? Why? How’s it happened?’ Well because you’ve got dumb instances like that. That’s why it happens.”


The word he uses is DUMB to describe Jones' decision to ignore the backline.


Someone on twitter responded to this with:

"For context (which doesn’t seem to matter at Fox) Carlton are 16 points down at the 26 min mark of the last quarter.

I daresay Jones is waiting for the potential switch kick if they win back possession to attack up the middle of the ground.

Carlton need 3 goals in 4 mins."


I read the same, but...

Jones opponent for the game was Bruce
Weitering's Naughton
Plowman's Bontempelli (when fwd), otherwise Lipinski

Jones' opponent kicked 5 goals.
Jones didn't punch when he should've when taking on Naughton.
Jones played too loose, as does Plowman.

You must respect your opponent.

I had already seen Jones' HUGE mistakes in the first 3/4 of the game, and the particular incident OTC exposed just highlighted what I already think of Jones footy IQ. May have been out of context but relevant to highlight Jones...who was miles away from anyone and anything where he was at the 27 min mark.

He should stick to basics of 101 Defence...then do the heroics.
We say this every 2nd week, after he's stuffed up again.

I know he's the best we've got, and when he's good he's AA talent.

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