I think some people are drawing some bizarre conclusions here. Some are pretty much saying (if not in as blunt an expression) that Setanta hasn't/won't make it because of Brett Ratten/Denis Pagan or the MC in general over his time at the club. As if Setanta's hitherto inability to really nail down a spot in the side is/has been because of forces somehow conspiring against him, but no fault of Setanta's own. I think this argument is not sustainable.

Granted, he hasn't been able to settle for a significant enough period of time in the one position. This has been well-documented and is a common source of frustration on the boards, and need not be revisited in any great detail by me. I personally believe that Setanta can only play as a defender at AFL level, if in any position at all. I think it's possible to argue that had he been unflinchingly persisted with over the past couple of seasons in a defensive role, he would be a better footballer than he is now. I think the principle is one of general application.

However, ultimately, if Setanta doesn't "make it" at AFL level, it will be down to because Setanta wasn't good enough to "make it". There are arguable mitigating circumstances, but there are mitigating circumstances with each and every player. We can't blame everyone else but the bloke in question. And just because we all want (and believe me, I do) Setanta to "make it" doesn't necessarily mean that he will. As it stands today, he is battling. People say he hasn't been allowed to settle in one position, and that his versatility is actually his greatest weakness. However, could he have been moved around so often because he has been unable to show enough to really cement his spot in one particular position on the ground?

By this I mean he has been, in my opinion, serviceable at best in defence; the odd good game and the odd shocker among a general collection of average performances that have done nothing for me to suggest that we can't do better. I have been more impressed with Michael Jamison and he has played less than ten games. But I don't think Setanta ever did/has ever done anything whilst playing in defence to suggest to the MC, and certainly to me, that he can really be a long-term defender for the CFC. He hasn't really done enough to say "I can play 10 years as a defender for this club, and here's why", if you know what I mean.

I don't consider Setanta to be a forward, though, paradoxically, I do consider him to be a relatively good kick for goal. I just don't think he has the smarts to play up forward, owing much to his lack of AFL upbringing and lack of AFL nous and instinct as to where and when to make leads etc. Although he is big and strong, he hasn't shown enough to suggest that he could be a long-term ruckman at AFL level, though admittedly, it was probably never foreseen when he joined that he would be a long-term ruckman.

The point is that he is, I think, moved around because he has yet to grab any particular position/role "by the scruff of the neck". It could actually be argued that the MC has done everything plausible in order to help Setanta, in that by moving him around they are trying to help him find a position at AFL level, even if it could also be argued that moving him around so much has ultimately operated to his detriment. But I don't think the MC can be accused of not giving Setanta a chance at AFL level. Setanta just hasn't been able to grab it properly yet.

AFL is a harsh environment. Setanta is clearly handicapped by the fact that he didn't grow up on a diet of AFL and has had to learn the game and its nuances from relative scratch. He deserves to be commended for his effort. But he is battling at the moment. And his future depends on Setanta and nobody else.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

This thread has made for strange reading. It started out being about Carlos & Aisake and become a platform for a few posters to vent about Ratten.

I'm a bit with Blues2005, I think it's just a fact that some players don't go on to be long term players. We all want the fairy tale with the O'hAlpin boys, but I don't think it's going to happen. Why this was grasped by some posters as an opportunity to rant about Ratten is beyond me. He is the coach, and he is allowed to have opinions on his players.

I think some of the discussions about Ratten's game plan, employing his mates etc, etc, were off topic and for another thread...

Fingers crossed both Carlos and Aisake can turn things around before the end of the year. Same goes for Jake Edwards, Mark Austin, Luke Blackwell, Adam Hartlett, Ryan Jackson and Clinton Benjamin.

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It's never as good as it looks and it's never as bad as it seems.

I agree.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

It certainly has been hijacked.....

Hows it hijacked???

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I use the term loosely..... perhaps running off in tangents is a better description. It is good discussion, don't get me wrong. I have yet to form a view of Ratts the coach, 8 games into his career (last year is meaningless).

Great - forgive my crudeness but 'pure' footballers pulled out of our a**** are not going to get us where we want to be.

We can't use the O'hAilpins and the Irish experiment as scapegoats for our lack of the required talent. Just because you have acquired a player or two with the required size and 'acceptable' skills etc does not mean they are going to cut the mustard.

The fact is, we should be recruiting players on their individual merits and should not be figuratively stamping labels onto their heads. The fact that we have had to put so much faith in the O'hAilpins is because we did/do not have enough good footballers to fill those roles, not because we don't have enough "pure" ones. It’s far easier to blame and brush away an already elusive concept instead of accepting human error and doing something to rectify it.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

It does not give any joy whatsoever to say that Setanta and Aisake will return home.

I genuinely hope that the Ohailpins do make it. I would be happy to be proved wrong, but I have sensed for quite some time that they will leave and it might not be their descision to do so.

However, there is still time for things to turn around.

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My Blue Heaven

With having T-Bird and Jamo out for the next couple of weeks i hope Setanta has a couple of really good games on the second or third opposition forward that helps change Rattens and the MC's warped theory that he's actually a forward He's not.

But going by what i've seen when he has been played down back Ratten will probably start him on Pavlich this week, Mooney the week after just to try and prove this warped point.

Spewing about our injuries to 2 of our best backman but at least Ratten and the MC's hands are being forced into playing him in his best position/s, that's a small grace.

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"I will rejoice in their anguish, delight in their failure and revel in our success"

We are Carlton, @#$%&! the rest !!!!!!

Carlos has been good in defence the last 2 weeks.

With jamo and Tbird out he is guarenteed a game.
Personally i would have him on the Pav and Waite on Tazza

To say he is soft by some posters is bullshit


As for Aisake I see no point in not giving him atleast 2 or 3 games.

He may suprise

He has more natural talent than his brother but lacks the intensity. maybe he is one of these guys who needs to be given an opportunity to show the goods

I may be a Carlos fan but the bagging he has got by some in this thread is pretty amazing

He has some limitations but he showed last week what value to the team he his

Brown would have kicked another 10 on us if it wasnt foe O"Hailpins peformance.

Almost a certainty to reach 50 games now. He has well and truly made it.

Was it Setanta, or the spare man in defence that stifled Brown's input later in the game?

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

That is an example of how some supporters undervalue Carlos

Brown slaughtered Waite.

Waite crapped himself
Carlos didnt and stood up to brown and bah one occasion was there all the time

Brown kicked 4 on Waite
His physical presence was too much for Waite
Waite was due for a bad game but I thought Carlos may have been a better option because Waite was never going to be physical enough.
He is ok on the volt from the Saints but not Brown.

Carlos had 2 kicked on him and forced Brown wider
And dont forget one of those goals was courtesy of Razor

Some posters really must have blinkers on
Ratts got the initalmatchup wrong

Gr8 post Woof, this made real sense.

Setanta Ohailpin showed something that not enouggh of our guys have on Saturday night and that is some real Mongrel. He is the only bloke in the league who has stood up to Brown and yeah sure Brown kicked a few, but big deal. Maybe with the unfortunate loss of Jamo for a couple of weeks Setanta can stay down back and prove soem critics wrong.

I love the bloke

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Blue boy thru and thru

I'm not defending Waite, he was too easily outbodied by Brown and found himself behind too often. The point I'm making is that it wasn't just a swap of Setanta for Waite onto Brown, the entire defensive strategy was changed.

One reason that a forward will lead wide is because the hole is taken up by a spare man in defence. I agree that Waite needed to be moved off Brown, and I agree that Setanta was more "physical" but I don't think it's as black and white as you make out.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

I actually thought our defence was pretty good Sat night.
Bris had 33 inside 50s in the first half so our defence did well to keep it to 11goals 8 behinds.

This thread is about the O'Hailpins isnt it
IMO Carlos is underated by the guys in the coachs box.

He would have been a better matchup than Waite.
The MC f-cked up.
Spare man or not.
And who was the spare man in defence

It was Gibbs early thats for sure so what changed in the second half

Of course Brown could of been stopped by golden boy Stevens in the third quarter from taking a mark from a perfect kick.

Point from that is defensive structure comes from all 18 players on the field

Setanta can be outbodied and go to ground ....

Waite goes to ground too easily as an excuse...

Setanta ust needs game time on the last line.. and for me he has the POTENTIAL to make it if settled...

His problem is he is tall and he is fast.. which should be a bonus for a club looking to shape a player for a key position spot.. but alas for Setanta its his problem because he gets shifted all over the park.

In my opinion Ratten is caching attimes as if he is a billionaire...and he doesnt need a fast ..strong .. tall because he thinks those spots are covered and he has an embrassment of riches so there is no need to play Setanta in a defensive position...so he is expendable maybe?

My problem is with this whole thing that i believe if given opportunities.. and shifting a guy like Setanta all over the park as a spare parts man is not an opportunity for someone LEARNING the game.. that he is burning the potential that both Setanta AND Aisake ...

Why does Ackland have to play ????
Or had to play???
He showed less than Aisake this year..... so why is Ackland rewarded and Aisake demoted???

Weird....

Anyway.. his idealism was showen up...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I was watching some of the first half last night (so much for the game no longer existing...thanks Bigpond) and one of Brown's marks running back with the flight of the ball caught Waite out completely. I dare say O'hAilpin and Thorton would've suffered the same fate. Brown is a freak.

Waite, O'Hailphin, - Whatever, I just want one of them put at centre half forward once we get our injured players back.

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

My question is - if Carlos and Sake weren't tall, fast and agile athletes would we be having a conversation about them failing to cement a spot in the side?

Blackwell, Edwards and Anderson are pretty much in the same mix, yet no-one bags the coach for if they are worthy to play at the highest level.

I like Carlos as a player and would LOVE to see him play for us in 2009 and beyond, but unlike synners and most of the poster here, I believe he has to play forward.

In the modern game, defense is the new midfield. These guys are the playmakers and drive the ball into the forwrad line. Carlos is not equipped to be that kind of player and probably never will be. He looks more comfortable playing the one on one role at FB, but he doesn't rebound the ball and 9 out of 10 times fists the ball away and often puts pressure on fellow defenders when he punches towards the goals.

He has all the physical attributes for a foward position - quick, tall, agile solid and accurate kick for goal. If he could lead to the right areas (and I think he does alot better than harts) to get his man away from Fev and offer a genuine option for our mids to kick for goal. I think he would be one of our best recruits.

Now go get them Carlos!