Talking Carlton Index Lochie O'Brien Kerryn Harrington Lochie O'Brien Kerryn Harrington CFC Home CFC Membership CFC Shop CFC Fixture Blueseum
It is currently Sat May 10, 2025 9:21 pm

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:02 am 
Offline
Bruce Doull
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:27 am
Posts: 33188
Location: In the box.
But did you play for the Boomers and knock it in under pressure with Shaq in your face????

Sure they can all be good VFL players... were talking elite here ....

Thats like saying Muscat can make the Barca starting line up...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:16 am 
Offline
Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:44 am
Posts: 3136
Synbad wrote:
But did you play for the Boomers and knock it in under pressure with Shaq in your face????

Sure they can all be good VFL players... were talking elite here ....

Thats like saying Muscat can make the Barca starting line up...


of course not - I'm 5'8, non athletic and liked to play in the paint. I've knocked down my fair share of shots against players much bigger though - that wasnt the point of my post and for u to suggest otherwise is both off topic and disrepectful.

In terms of developing and implementing the mechanics of a good (accurate) kick/handball, that skill can be learnt. If recruiters didnt think it would be possible to learn skills then they would not be recruiting people like maric and roughhead. Why do we bother we setanta? why did the dogs recruit the rugby player with pick 6 last year?

For most clubs, a 10-20% reduction in the number of turnovers will go a very long way to improving their fortunes on field.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:41 am 
Offline
Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:26 pm
Posts: 4719
Location: Parliament House, Canberra
Sydney Blue wrote:
Big Danny If Pagan was a Manager of a buisness and he was blaming all his workers for the reason why the company was not making profits you would start to ask questions wouldn't you. Problem is Big Danny that premiership coaches are hard to find and as a matter of fact out of the 16 teams only five have coached a flag. So when you finish last and one happens to come along you go after him dont worry about the expense , dont take a good look you just get him. Now if you were to ask the question on this site if you would want Choco williams coaching the side you would here screaming from the rafters no one would want him . But at the same time Pagan had a side not to different to Choco and managed to fall in and win a couple of flags against two sides that should not have been there in the first place and if they had played the sides that they should have Pagans flag total would be none. See it was the players Pagan had that made Pagan the man he is today and give him players that are not of the class of Carey , Archer young mick Martyn stevens an in form Mckernan he is found wanting. so every week he tells his side to go out and play a particular game plan because it worked 10 years ago and all the supporters just go along with it because he hasn't got the list and we need to bottom out to give Pagan the players that he needs so he can become a good coach again


If you were the boss of a company and you had those bad employees you'd fire them!

And you'd get some good ones in.

Oh, but we haven't been able to get any good ones in because we haven't had any draft picks. :roll:

I'll reiterate your quote
Quote:
See it was the players Pagan had that made Pagan the man he is today


Haven't you just contradicted yourself? You say that it was the players that have made Pagan what he is today and you've failed to realise that we at the moment don't have the players.

Look at our premiership teams - how many champions can you count in them? A whole HEAP of them - Just looking at 1970:

Jesaulenko
Walls
McKay
Nicholls
Crosswell
Crane
Silvagni


Look at 1972

Doull
Jesaulenko
Walls
Nicholls
Southby
McKay

Or 1981

McKay
Johnston
Harmes
Doull
Fitzpatrick

etc. etc.

How many champions do we have in our current team?

Every premiership team has their champions, they must be a champion team and there must be players with individual brilliance.

A good coach with bad players will inevitably lose to sides with more talent - that is simple.

Put it this way, give Pagan the Geelong list, what do you think he would be able to do?

My case rests.

_________________
"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 11:26 am 
Offline
Robert Walls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:28 pm
Posts: 3768
http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/real ... 35817.html

Quote:
We knew what we were getting when we got them. We never said they were going to be Brownlow medallists," Pagan said.

"I think they were better than what we had at the time."

Pagan said that at the end of 2003 - when Carlton backed up a wooden spoon with a 15th placing - the club was better off with ready-made players rather than using its limited draft picks on players needing long-term development.

"It would have been pick 85, Carlton; pick 86, Carlton; pick 90, Carlton; if we'd have gone down that road. Just imagine if they all turned out to be nothing," Pagan said. "Do you think the club and its brand would have been able to endure the three years to find out whether any of those blokes were any good? It wouldn't have."

Pagan said the club continued to feel the effects of the the severe draft penalties imposed on it in 2003 for salary-cap breeches.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:17 pm 
Offline
Stephen Kernahan
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:17 am
Posts: 17381
Location: the Yarran's fertile shores
BlueWorld wrote:
http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/realfooty/articles/2005/05/28/1117129935817.html

Quote:
We knew what we were getting when we got them. We never said they were going to be Brownlow medallists," Pagan said.

"I think they were better than what we had at the time."

Pagan said that at the end of 2003 - when Carlton backed up a wooden spoon with a 15th placing - the club was better off with ready-made players rather than using its limited draft picks on players needing long-term development.

"It would have been pick 85, Carlton; pick 86, Carlton; pick 90, Carlton; if we'd have gone down that road. Just imagine if they all turned out to be nothing," Pagan said. "Do you think the club and its brand would have been able to endure the three years to find out whether any of those blokes were any good? It wouldn't have."

Pagan said the club continued to feel the effects of the the severe draft penalties imposed on it in 2003 for salary-cap breeches.




yeah, I read that, and his argument is a poor one.

Can the brand sustain another wooden spoon, and the delisting of all his recycled players? If we survive through this season, we could have lived without so many recycleds to see a 17 year old pick 80 and 82.... even if they never made the grade.

Clarke played a lot of 2s games last year, and Johnson played 21 games. Would the team be worse off if Clarke had played the Johnson games? We got Clarke for Beaumont... fair swap.

Pagan has just given Walker more responsibility in the middle and played him on MacLeod.... and he did really well on a player who at his best is the leagues best.

FAITH + RESPONSIBILITY = DEVELOPMENT

Davies has had neither for all of Pagan's tenure. Livo's just coming good with both.

I like Denis, and I agree with Synbad, but I don't think he's done enough to develop certain players, and he made some bad decisions at the 2003 draft/trade table

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:29 pm 
Offline
Garry Crane

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:13 pm
Posts: 219
Tryant i agree with some of your points but i've gotta disagree with others.

One thing i do agree on is our use of late picks, we should have taken a couple risks, we should've gotten Mini and someone very hard nosed who had scope for improvement.

Our use of our other picks, i.e. 3rd rounder for Scotland were all good choices. We did well in the '03 draft, overall i'm pretty happy with it. I think Pagan just wanted to add depth to our list which was a great idea, just one risk with a youngster would've been good.

The other point i agree with is the way he's developing a couple players, such as Davies and more recently Bannister. Bannister could do a Notting role for us very good and Davies can be a very very good player, just needs a bit of confidence which i don't think Pagan is giving him. But you've gotta earn resepct and i don't think Davies has Pagans respect yet. I still have faith in Davies to become a good player.

His development of the '04 bunch at the moment has been good, i think he has some very real ideas of what he's gonna do with these blokes.

BUT, as much as i agree with all your points, your taking them to the extreme by saying we should've just gone with young talent. Where better off for what Pagan did in 03 then if he had've just gone for the youngsters.

We'd have absolutley no depth if we didn't do what we did.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:51 pm 
Offline
Stephen Kernahan
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:17 am
Posts: 17381
Location: the Yarran's fertile shores
Big Danny G wrote:
BUT, as much as i agree with all your points, your taking them to the extreme by saying we should've just gone with young talent. .


I didn't say that.

I said, as a bare minimum, we shouldn't have picked Bannister and Bowyer, (and, I wouldnt have made the Johnson/Harford trade) = 3 more kids (but, Clarke, McGrath, Teague and Morrell come in)

and

I wouldn't have traded to Longmuir and Chambers.... not to take 2 more draft picks, necessarily, but because they could only swallow matches from the likes of Simpson, Davies etc..... Chambers is honest, but no star.

or without Johnson, Bannister and Bowyer on the list, THAT opens up places for Chambers et.al to come onto the list in 2004.

When you get talent, you have to develop it. You can either be proactive, or dump the kid in the seconds and FORCE him to make your decision inevitable.

Having such a poor list, we need to be proactive about our development.

Its hard to develop your young players when you keep putting mediocre 25 year olds in their way. We've got to sit down and think "ok.... this Justin Davies can play, when everything works for him. How can we make it work? what can we work on?"

then you develop a plan.. either a run in defence if he needs to learn to be accountable.... or to tag someone in the middle.... or give him a specific role somewhere else on the ground (ie, tagging attacking defenders).

Instead, after he's picked Bannister, Johnson, Chambers etc etc etc... there's little room for Davies. Sporn's also lost the plot, of late, because he's never been settled. Is he a HBF? is he a wingman? a tagger? a 3rd tall?

I wouldn't think Sporn was a worse player than Bannister. Why wasn't Sporn given those tough tagging jobs? Was there any reason to pick a tall defensive mid with good motor who can't kick and isn't smart.... when we already have Sporn? And they're about the same age? Then where does Sporn play?

Now they'll both either be chopped or traded at the end of the year. No value out of either, because they competed for the same development time.

If you run a company, and you develop a succession plan for leadership roles.. Sporn's never had one. What Pagan should have done was sat down with the Sporns/Davies of the team and tell them the heats on, now, but that he has faith in them to produce.. and see if they do.... not undermine their confidence by bringing in several players who play their positions.

If their attitude is wrong on the track, and he has no faith in them, they shouldn't even be on the list and he should have traded them last year when they might have had some value. You don't keep players on the list just so you can ultimately delist them without putting in any effort.

I think Pagan has an old-fashioned approach to people-management that hasn't done us any favours. There are rules in the AFL that don't allow you to just fire all your employees and hire 40 superstars. He had to make do with the talent he had, and he placed hardly any faith in it. Not only that, but he brought in a whole new division of players who are only as good, or worse, than the players he already had.... at the expence of a young-bracket pushing up.

Say what you want about the decision to bring in the recycleds..... but we're staring at another spoon this year (or at least a low finish), and most of his imported gang are facing the chop.

AND THAT'S what history will record his people/list management by.

Pagan panicked and made mistakes... but its not too late to start correcting his errors.

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:57 pm 
Offline
Garry Crane

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:13 pm
Posts: 219
Fair enough. I guess i just assumed that you didn't want any recycled players :P

But yeah, i agree with you. I've always looked at the "we need depth" point of view but it's only in key positions where we need depth so we should've gone with a big roughie and a tall lanky bloke with a lot of scope for improvement instead of Chambers and T-Lo.

You've won me over Tryant :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 5:04 pm 
Offline
Stephen Kernahan
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:17 am
Posts: 17381
Location: the Yarran's fertile shores
Big Danny G wrote:
Fair enough. I guess i just assumed that you didn't want any recycled players :P

But yeah, i agree with you. I've always looked at the "we need depth" point of view but it's only in key positions where we need depth so we should've gone with a big roughie and a tall lanky bloke with a lot of scope for improvement instead of Chambers and T-Lo.:


Well, we might have even picked someone like Matthew Egan from Geelong, who I think Mickstar singled out last year like Bryan.

Matt Egan would have played 5 games MINIMUM by now if he was on our list.... playing fullback while Livo was out.

FOR EXAMPLE

We might have picked 2 dud kids!! But, going with some youth, we'd only be in the same position we're in now, in a Worst Case Scenario.

I'm not saying picking kids = success..... but they can lead to success... we might have even picked another Brad Fisher, perhaps! Who knows?

But now, we never will.

But we knew what we were getting with Bannister and Bowyer, and Johnson, Chambers and Longmuir.

And those guys (perhaps not Chambers just yet), will be the first cut at the end of the year.

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 114 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group