those expectations of 9-10 wins from D.Pratt has made Pagan go back to his same old tricks. Trying Bannister, Wiggins, Saddington, Lance and Kouta in the team to get a short term effect, just to save his behind.
I had nothing against Pagan and the MC untill this year, but it is similar to reverting to the days of recruiting Teague, Sporn, Johnson, Clarke and all those others. It has really been devastating to not see them investing in the future recently.

What was the line used "I thought we had put a bit too much youth in the team in early rounds" - or something like that. That is absolute ass being fed to us, he just placed those short term fixes in to save his own behind.
Those wins were great. If wiggins, lance etc are in our long term plans for success then that would be fine. But really they arent. They are in Pagans immeidate plans for his own benefit.

I liked Pagan up untill this year!! But when Lance gets a run and then Hartlett gets to debut (was proud as punch and got his own conference and everything) then gets the arse instead of an injured and inneffective player its really poor.
Pull your head in MC.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Andain.

You dont count Stevens in Carltons figures because he's not playing yet you include Cousins and Embley in West Coasts best.

Embley has played 4 games to Stevo's 3 and Cousins has yet to play.
I'd suggest Priddis at 22 and Rosa at 20 would be in West Coasts best 8 this year well before Wirrpunda.

Its all about perception I suppose.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

murphy & gibbs need to get to about 21y.o before they start dominating imo.
major playmakers for west coast, geelong and hawthorn have a few years on murphy, gibbs, walker, carrazzo, simpson

Thanks mate, you just posted what I could be stuffed typing...

And BV - I take no notice of Pagan's hyperbole... I look at the what takes place on the field, not the words coming from the coaches mouth... as for defending the players I wasn't looking for excuses, I was stating that they were clearly overawed by Hawthorn - something that although is subject to debate seemed to be pretty clear to me from where I was watching the game...

...maybe you should try to stop squeezing a anti-Pagan comment into every post - I think it's detracting from your otherwise insightful comments.

As for experience, both teams are similar in that they have one older more experienced midfielder each (Stevens and Crawford) - and a host of younger midfielders still learning the nuances of the game (Carazzo/Simpson/etc. - Hodge/Mitchell/etc) - take Stevens out of the midfield and theres a truckload of experience and leadership gone right there.

About the only area of the ground we have real experience and players with games in their belt was the forward line... and the ball hardly got down there.

Just another nit pic ...

this was not the 3rd flogging, it was the FOURTH flogging this year .... Blues were flogged by Saints team missing about 10 of their top 22.

It is more systemic than just one night, particularly if you watch what players do off the ball even when we play "well".

No Sparky, its detracting from the message you want portrayed.
I've posted as many positive posts about Pagan recently as I have negative so lets stop peddling this nonsense.

You clearly stated that the players were young and inexperienced on Friday. The fact is the Hawthorn players were younger and more inexperienced. I'm happy for you to make excuses for our performances but lets be factual in our assessments.
As for agreeing with Andains post. I'm happy for you but it just makes 2 of you wrong.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Depends on what you class as a belting. . Reminds me of the dribble that MMM used to go on about with distinguishing a shellacking from a belting.

http://www.blueseum.org/cfc/tiki-index. ... and+Losses

One game can always be viewed on its own, or you can assess it against other performances. To me the Baggers panicked, were demoralised and had no idea who to man up on in the second half - it seemed the instruction was '1 on 1' but the Hawk changes were dramatic and plentiful.

Headplant to me we were further away in the Pies game than in the St Kilda game. I think St Kilda just got the edge in the last and we couldnt stop them, Collingwood instead should have been further ahead.

The facts are that this was our 3rd 10 goal plus thumping for 2007, being 1 in every 4 games. This closely approximates the average for Pagan's tenure of 24 over 100 games. However, in 2007 each of our big losses have been against clear top teams.

What else this means is anyone's guess - we still have significant weak links in our team, despite underlying improvement OR game plan OR coaching OR leadership OR all points combined?

I'll admit I don't have a photographic memory but I'm fairly certain both Cousins and Embley played in last years grand final. In fact I think one of them won the Norm Smith

Those ages of the West Coast players I listed are the ages of the players during the grand final.

I don't think Bannister or Wiggins have to be short term fixes.
Both are about 24.
Bannister didn't set the world on fire last weekend but he wasn't R. Crusoe.
Wiggo was one of our better players if we can believe the 'experts' of the press.
Until somebody in the Ants is able to push then out of their spots they are here to stay. Apparently there doesn't seem to be anybody ready to step up just yet to fill their roles. Grigg has been mentioned but he is a different sort of player from what I have heard.
Now we look like having Lance and Walks sidelined, the changes will be once again out of necessity and not to replace players who haven't performed.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

My biggest problem with Wiggins and Bannister is that by now - if they were any good - they would have cemented a permanent place in the Carlton side. They have been playing senior footy for 5-6 years and still haven't done it. I know that they have a go - but we need more than that.

They will not be in our long term plans, therefore they should not be in our short term plans either.

We really get exposed by teams that load up their back lines and charge forward when they get possession. Allot of teams do it and we can counter some of them, but the really good teams or the ones that super flood we get exposed. The Hawks shut down all of our options and ran into the spaces that we left open to run into. They then put extreeme pressure on the ball carriers when we got possession, so when guys like murph, simmo, carrots and walker had the ball, they would look to find an option to kick to, but the Hawks already closed those areas down and so the guys were left with no option and either were tackled or kicked it to a contest. This made us look very slow and we were critisized for not having guys with leg speed, but we need to look at the facts.

Firstly every team looks slow when they are chasing the ball carriers rather than being the ones being chased. Secondly if you get smashed in the ruck/clearances you will be the team chasing and therefor look slow. Thirdly if a team doesn't put midfield pressure on the ball carrier then the defenders will almost always get beaten (esspecially with current rules).

Now if we accept that, guess where we are having problems and how do we fix it?

Great post Andain. I agree with you 100%.

btw, Wiggins has cemented a spot in the team. He came straight back into the team after injury. I would call that cemented. PLUS he has played really good footy since coming back in. On average he's played good footy for his last 20 games. Give the guy a break, he is 24 and is now repaying our faith in him.

I reckon Wiggo has cemented his place. He was only left out this year through injury and came straight back in. Last year he played a lot. Haven't got the numbers, though. The Dog seems to have that stuff on hand.
Bannister is still early to call because he hadn't played for a long time before the Doggies game and needs as you say, to cement his place or not.
At 24 a piece, if they both keep up their current form, there is no reason they can't play for several years yet.
The general feeling seems to be that they are both not good enough but the reality is that nobody in the Ants has shown anything to oust them.
Yes, we can pick sides for the future, but we also have to pick sides on form, ulness we are looking to lose instead of win.
But there is another thread dealing with that.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

we do have three or four hopefulls coming through from the ants.
hopefully grigga, benji, harts & edwards play a good game today.

we know there are about three spots up for grabs with with walks, whitnall and possibly blackwell to be omitted.

hopefully they get a run as joey & betts will likely be up for selection as well.