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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:30 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 18046
Indie wrote:
He wasn't able to put in his 2 bob's worth while Collo and Smorgon were there, but now the clamps are off. There never was any attempt by you to substantiate your claim about what "the record" showed. Maybe you could do so now. After all, you've shown that you can do a bit of research when it suits your purposes.

This is, as Jarusa says, the tip of the iceberg. I don't have time now, but I'll go back over "the record" to show how opinionated (and not objective) you are regarding Pagan. And in your inimitable style, your opinion is usually delivered with a healthy dose of sarcasm and arrogance which sits so well on a serving moderator.

But it seems that I have a special place in your heart, BV. Maybe because I called you on your sweeping statement in the above thread. Seems that even if I post something which is even-handed as I did in this thread, I have to wait for the stinging rebuke from you, in your objective mode of course.

And it seems to be a bit odd that you suggest PMs to resolve differences. I PMd you during the above thread to try to smooth things over, but it's had absolutely no effect whatsoever. So that's not something I'll bother to do again.

Sorry that this thread has become horribly hijacked. Again, I point out that my post was even-handed and seeking some reasonable discussion. But it seems that isn't possible.


I apologise Mav, I did recieve your pm and i replied as well.
But that doesnt mean I have to agree with everything you write.
Yes I am opinionated but who isnt?

It appears my role and behaviour as a moderator is an issue with Jars and yourself. If I have acted inappropriately as a moderator, I'm more than willing to stand down. Just let the other mods know your concerns.

As for the "substantiation" of my claim, I will give you the details.
My company was a sponsor of the Carlton Football club a couple of years ago. I attended several sponsors meetings during 04/05 and 06 including a sponsors function at Telstra Dome somewhere around late 05.
There were about a dozen of us in attendance. Ian Collins MC'ed the meeting and gave us some details about the club and where it was heading, what their drafting plans were and what they had planned for the club.

Collo told us that he had told Pagan that the list was "stuffed" at the end of 02 and it needed to be rebuilt. Pagan told the board that he believed carlton were a finals side and if they could assemble a list of ready made players, his game style would enable us to play finals football.

Collo told Pagan that he didnt share the same faith in the list but they would back him whatever he decided.

I didnt post this earlier as I dont like my relationship with CFC becoming public knowledge on TC however obviously you couldnt let this go.

I'm happy for you to go back over my posts. Yes I can be sarcastic, yes I can bearrogant. So be it. Most of my posts about Pagan are generally given with reasons and stats. I rarely get personal or rude.

As I said, if you find my behaviour as a mod inappropriate, just pm Camelboy, I'll happily step aside.

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Last edited by Blue Vain on Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:31 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:28 am
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Didn't want you left hanging there BV, so I thought I'd find one for you to go on with.

Blue Vain wrote:
Is'nt it amazing that the 2 senior players who have been in our system the least are the better decision makers.

Maybe they havent been "reprogrammed" sufficiently yet.
Give it time. :wink:

That was a bit over 24 hours ago. Hmmm ... what was that about your objective search for the truth? Maybe you could show us your data on that one ... ;-)

Umm, BV, do you think maybe Murphy and Gibbs might be amongst our best decision-makers because they were the best talent in their years? Just a thought ...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:54 am 
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Harry Vallence

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I don't accept for one second, BV, that you couldn't have replied with that information months ago when this question was raised.

I find your suggestion that you feared your secret identity mght be revealed to the public to be absolutely comical and unconvincing. Nothing in what you have suggested in your post would be embarrassing in any respect.

It now appears that your claim that Collo was "on the record" was a sham, as a private briefing is hardly that. Instead of fabricating such a claim, you could have simply explained that you'd heard Collo say XYZ. Or if the contents of your post were true, you could have PMd myself and Jarusa and given us the heads up with a request not to say anything. I've received a number of such pieces of information without passing them on to anyone else.

I fear that this is a self-serving story, and I don't accept it as the truth.

Even if it were the truth, are you seriously suggesting that Collo wouldn't have had been tempted to paint himself in a good light? After all, we're dealing with the guy who claimed that the lock-in at Telstra Dome was required to address terrorist issues. Where are the contemporaneous accounts which would overcome that credibility problem? Did you read the article I set out the link for which was written in March 2005? It quoted Collo and Sticks extensively, and not surprisingly given the way we were then travelling they both suggested they worked hand-in-glove with Pagan.

And you've got Pagan's version which contradicts the claims you've made.

Sorry, BV, but you are every bit the zealot that you suggest I am. And that leaves your story with a gaping credibility gap.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:37 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Don't expect an exact answer Indie. :wink:

Expect the last line swipe more likely. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:23 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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Surely Paul Ford gets a couple of seasons with our young blokes before being crucified.
9 games in and he's being sentenced already? :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:40 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Location: Progreso, Yucatan, MEXICO
I just love it when you lot argue in public. NOT!

My understanding of fitness is that the pre-season is the tme to build up fitness and that during the season it is just honed up a little. Trying to make the players fitter during the season will cause them to run out of legs during the game, exactly the same result as if they weren't fit in the first place.
It is generally acknowledged that young players need several pre-seasons under their belts to get to a basic level of fitness to carry them through a season. The more pre-seasons the better up to a certain age when the body can't handle any more and so the level drops off. Most of our blokes are still lacking enough pre-seasons to get to the basic level required. Walker, Simmo, Carazzo are getting there but Murphy is lacking and Gibbs has no hope yet. Nor do the likes of Anderson, Benjamin or other prospective mids or running players.
There is nothing for it but to wait it out or buy another experienced midfielder to help out Stevens next year and maybe the next while Murphy gets to peak level and the others are approaching it.
I think Ford's job during the season is to work out a load they can handle week to week after the game to keep them up but not to exhaust them.
You can go back to your argument now.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:04 am 
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Harry Vallence

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Budzy, I don't know whether you're suggesting that my post crucified Ford. If so, I'd like to point out that my post began life as the start of a new thread. The mods merged it in the existing thread, which ther're entitiled to do. But that might give the post a context which was not intended. As I suggested in my post, I think the problem is one of youth and lanky bodies.

Blue Sombrero, that's the sort of response I was hoping for - one that attempts to deal with the issue raised. Cheers.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:13 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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:shock:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:07 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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Indie wrote:
Budzy, I don't know whether you're suggesting that my post crucified Ford. If so, I'd like to point out that my post began life as the start of a new thread. The mods merged it in the existing thread, which ther're entitiled to do. But that might give the post a context which was not intended. As I suggested in my post, I think the problem is one of youth and lanky bodies.

Blue Sombrero, that's the sort of response I was hoping for - one that attempts to deal with the issue raised. Cheers.

Umm ..just a general comment Indie ...not aimed solely at you, but if the cap fits... :wink:
Your agenda is pretty clear, so I mostly just scroll through your posts .. cheers :-D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:10 am 
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Harry Vallence

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Love the way people say that, and yet they never fail to respond Budzy. Wow, they don't read the posts, but still know that they need to respond. ESP? :lol:

Not hard to see your agenda - Anti-Pagan/Pro-Mitchell. Just because you run with the mob doesn't mean you're agenda-free or "objective". Read one of your posts and you've read 'em all. But once is once to many ;-)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:46 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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The boys ran out the game well today.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:48 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Yep - makes knobs out of those who bang on about rotations ...


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:56 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Indie wrote:
Yep - makes knobs out of those who bang on about rotations ...


Explain relevance please?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:20 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Jarusa wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
The difference is, I'm trying to be objective


I would argue you have been anything but objective in the last couple of weeks.

Keep in mind you are a moderator of this site not a spreader of mindless anti-pagan propaganda.


What? So moderators are not permitted to have an opinion? What utter bulldust.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:09 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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bluechucky wrote:
Jarusa wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
The difference is, I'm trying to be objective


I would argue you have been anything but objective in the last couple of weeks.

Keep in mind you are a moderator of this site not a spreader of mindless anti-pagan propaganda.


What? So moderators are not permitted to have an opinion? What utter bulldust.


I've looked several times and I still cannot see anything in that post that suggests what you suggest.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:51 pm 
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John James

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:10 pm
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Location: Brisbane
Lurker Blue wrote:
The boys ran out the game well today.


I agree but I also think that the Doggies arent a physical side therefore our young guys didnt get bashed as they do with the bigger bodied sides...todays win to me wasnt a surprise because of that very reason, We seem to be a clone of the Dogs, albeit perhaps a year behind in terms of development.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:01 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:28 am
Posts: 1073
bluechucky wrote:
Jarusa wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
The difference is, I'm trying to be objective


I would argue you have been anything but objective in the last couple of weeks.

Keep in mind you are a moderator of this site not a spreader of mindless anti-pagan propaganda.


What? So moderators are not permitted to have an opinion? What utter bulldust.

In BV's opinion, he should be allowed to suppress others' opinions (while masquerading as a champion of the freedom of speech of those who agree with him). Maybe he could be called a terminator rather than a moderator.

Looks like the offer BV made to stand aside if the moderators wanted him to do so was a bit of a cheap stunt. Maybe we might have more chance of success if we complain to his mother.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:39 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Lurker Blue wrote:
The boys ran out the game well today.


That they did, well done them! A much, much better four quarter effort. Thankfully, I reckon I would have gone postal if we threw this game away after such a great third quarter.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:46 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:28 am
Posts: 1073
From the club site:

[quote]SAVING Anthony Koutoufides for a last-quarter crack at the Western Bulldogs was crucial to Sunday’s drought-breaking 10-point win, Carlton coach Denis Pagan says.

Koutoufides spent most of the first three quarters on the bench, before starring in the midfield as the Blues withstood the Bulldogs’ surge in the final term.

Pagan took the decision to save Kouta before the match, attempting to address the side’s habit of fading in the later stages. Before this match, the Blues had fallen away in five consecutive weeks, including games they had genuine chances to win against Adelaide, the Kangaroos, Collingwood and St Kilda.

“We wanted to make sure when the pressure was on, we had somebody there,â€


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:56 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Nice to see at least some sort of tactical moves with the bench from Denis! :-D

Kouta did seem to have the ability to find time and space when he won the ball as well, so Pagan deserves a pat on the back for this.

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