If there weren't any, then how come we haven't won a flag for 11 years, we've finished last 3 times and 2nd last once, and we've had no defence or ruckmen for 6 years?

It's hard to base an argument, using potential as your selling point.

Was the ruck addressed?
Yes. Matthew Allan was waiting in the wings at the end of 1995, ready to take on the number one ruck role upon the retirement of Madden. An able back-up in Porter was recruited shortly after 1995. Allan went on to win the best and fairest, All-Australian honours and play 140 games for the Blues.

Was a suitable replacement sought and groomed for Sticks, Diesel, Harry, Sexton, Spalding, etc?
Aside from the generic "etc", let's look firstly at the names you bring up here specifically.

Sticks/Spalding: Key forwards in Hamill and Whitnall were brought into the side in 1996 and 1997 respectively. Both will be/are 200+ game players. At the end of 1998 we recruited a full-forward by the name of Brendan Fevola.

Diesel: As at the end of 1995 we had Brown who had only just played 100 games, Ratten who had played only one season in the middle and less than 100 games, Koutoufides less than 65 games, Camporeale in his first season, Whitehead in his second season.

Added to the mix were Lappin in 1998, Beaumont from 1995, Murphy in 1996, Hickmott in 1996. All played a heap of footy in their careers.

Madden: Already discussed.

By far and away the hardest thing any team would have to cover is Silvagni, Dean, Sexton, McKay, Christou in defence. All played over 150 games as top-line defenders. Manton was brought in during the 1995 season but where we have fallen down is from 2001 (after Silvagni's departure six years after the 1995 season) and onwards.

What were the weaknesses in the 1995 list? Who should've been cut at the end of the 1995 season?

Come on, it's meant to be easy with hindsight.

Try looking at the 20 guys who didn't make the premiership team verbs.

Bringing in players like Mansfield and O'Reilly and Devonport and so on instead of replenishing the list with kids was where it went wrong.

Guys like Madden were allowed to go on too long and were allowed to take up spots which should have been used on kids.

You've put up examples of one or two players a year we were adding.

If you want to sustain success you need to be turning over at least 6 a year and hoping at least 3 will be long term players for the club.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

Guys like Mitchell, Bond, Gleeson, O'Sullivan, Cook to name a few were all moved on post 1995.

We may have recruited some shockers, but all clubs have.

But we had a young Koutoufides, Camporeale, Whitehead, mid-aged Brown and Ratten, and we added Lappin, Beaumont, Murphy, Whitnall, Hamill, promoted Allan when he was ready, brought in Hickmott. There's 12 players introduced or who had to take on extra responsibility post 1995. All went on (except Whitehead) to play 150+ games. Houlihan started in 1998.

Anyone who says "I was so worried at the end of 1995 that we didn't overhaul the list" is just playing silly buggers.

The problems started in 2001. At the end of 1995 and in the years following, we really set ourselves up for a tilt at the flag in 2000 & 2001, but such is footy, the cards didn't fall our way.

Have a look at those we drafted in the list below. What's shocking is not how few of them turned out to be good players but where our picks were in the draft. We were trading away high draft picks for players from other clubs.

1995 National Draft
Pick 62 Adrian Burdon Tasmania U18 U18 Tas
Pick 63 Jacob Anstey Tuggeranong ACT
Pick 69 Daniel Marshall Dandenong-Southern U18 U18 VMFL
Pick Father-Son David Walls Southport Qld

1996 National Draft
Pick 38 Sam Smart Norwood SANFL
Pick 52 Damien Lock Bendigo U18 U18 VCFL
Pick 74 Chris Jackson NSW-ACT U18 U18 NSW-ACT
Pick 81 Anthony Franchina Carlton Reserves AFL RES
Pick Father-Son Lance Whitnall Northern U18 U18 VMFL

1997 National Draft
Pick 7 Kris Massie Dandenong U18 U18 VMFL
Pick 23 Adam Chatfield NSW-ACT U18 U18 NSW-ACT
Pick 55 Craig Black Dandenong U18 U18 VMFL
Pick 70 Trent Hoppner Preston U18 U18 VMFL
Pick 80 John Hynes Prahran U18 U18 VMFL
Pick 83 Ben J. Thompson Kedron Grange Qld

1998 National Draft
Pick 6 Murray Vance Murray U18 U18 VCFL
Pick 38 Brendan Fevola Dandenong U18 U18 VMFL
Pick 58 Ian Prendergast Oakleigh U18 U18 VMFL
Pick 67 Brett Backwell West Brisbane Qld
Pick 78 Not utilised
Pick 87 Not utilised

1999 National Draft
Pick 60 Richard Kelly Perth WAFL
Pick 73 Ryan Houlihan Murray U18 U18 VCFL
Pick 80 Jeremy Dukes Prahran U18 U18 VMFL
Pick 86 Trent Hotton East Burwood VMFL
Pick 90 Andrew Merrington St Bernards VAFA
Pick 92 Adam Mathews Murray U18 U18 VCFL
Pick 93 Joe Allen Gippsland U18 U18 VCFL

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

Funny you stop at 1999. What about 2000?

Again the question is not who we drafted, but who should've been moved on? No-one seems to want to answer that.

Go and get hold of a list of our worst 15-20 players and you'll have your answer.

I'm not suggesting we should have culled half our premiership team. I'm suggesting that with an aging list we should have been investing heavily in youth at the top of the draft and instead we traded away our top picks for mid-range players. In effect we've done ourselves out of a generation of Marc Murphys and Josh Kennedys, Kade Simpsons, etc.



Okay look at all 10 years since then.

2000 and 2005 are the only years where we've had picks in all of the first four rounds.

Pick #19 & 65 for Mick McGuane FFS...

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

We were planning for another tilt at the premiership aiming for the late 90s or the early 2000s. It didn't work out, but the players we developed in 1995 or introduced into the side post 1995 were definitely for that reason. They have all gone on to be significant AFL players, so we in fact got a lot right in the five years from 1995 - 1999. We had our down years (1997 & 1998) and by 1999 we had a great mix of experience (Silvagni, Sexton, Christou, McKay, Bradley, Brown and Rice) excellent mid-age players in Ratten, Camporeale, Allan, Murphy, Hogg, Manton and especially Koutoufides, as well as exciting youngsters like Whitnall, Hamill, Beaumont and Massie. Not one of those players hasn't managed at least 100 AFL games.

It warms my heart to see an extract from the Blueseum in a valid argument about Carlton. Great stuff guys!

It is surreal to suggest our club's list management was anything other than disastrous through the late '90's, and remarkable to assess a team with a plethora of over-30 year-old players as requiring no changes. At the time of the '95 premiership, it was clear that retirements were required, and greater evolution of the playing list was necessary.

Williams, Kernahan, Dean and others were reaching the end of their careers, and no obvious replacements were waiting in the wings. The fact that certain players went onto play 150-200 games merely reflects quantity, not quality. It is ludicrous to even think that Simon Beaumont was anything more than a useful player occasionally.

Reality says our club tried to maintain competitive through drafting other club's rejects, and that policy failed as our current status would attest.

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"The old believe everything, the middle-aged suspect everything, and the young know everything." Oscar Wilde

So Williams, Kernahan and Dean should've gone at the end of 1995?

See, you don't want to go into specifics, I do. Because your arguement is based on "we should've overhauled the list at the end of 1995" you should at least explain how.

On the other hand, I have quite clearly explained how I belive the older players were phased out post 1995 and replaced with players aimed at winning us another premiership but the turn of the century. Specifics, not airy fairy nothingness.

That's not what he wrote.



And your argument is based on frotting yourself to the 95 premiership side. I gave you my reason for our downfall and you've ignored it. I'm not suggesting that the key senior players should have been pensioned off before their time. I wrote that we should have been injecting youthful talent into the club rather than bringing in older players from other clubs. It's that youthful talent added to the core group that'll bring you sustained success rather than trying to pick up other clubs expendable older players.

We should have been looking at winning 2-3 premierships over the following 10 years rather than trying to sneak one at "the end of the century".

Quite clearly the policy of trading away picks didn't work and you're trying to justify that decision even though it failed by putting words in others mouths.

Brisbane won three flags from 2001-2003 and they currently have a list of a similar average age to ours. That's rejuvenation. How many high picks have they traded away in the last three years? It's not hard to see that they'll be in better shape 10 years after their last flag than we were 10 years after ours.

Unless you don't want to of course.

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

26 eighteen year olds in 5 years is a fair injection of youth I would have thought

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Wrong end of the draft Sydney.

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

My arguement is who specifically should have been moved on from the 1995 team because I have read people saying "I was worried after the end of the 1995 season". I contend that is rot. At the end of the 1995 season another premeirship in 1996 was expected.

Our downfall has been from 2001 onwards, not from 1995 onwards. 1995-2000 was geared towards winning 2 to 3 premierships. It didn't happen but it could well have with a bit of luck on our side.

People say Brisbane should've overhauled their list after the 2002 premiership, basically forgoing the 2003 premiership (and almost another in 2004) for the "future". It's not how footy clubs work, never has been and never will be.

Brisbane expect to be up there again in a couple of years, as we did in 1998.

but we were at the wrong end of the table to gain the access to the right end of the draft

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

1995 National Draft
Pick 62 Adrian Burdon Tasmania U18 U18 Tas
Pick 63 Jacob Anstey Tuggeranong ACT
Pick 69 Daniel Marshall Dandenong-Southern U18 U18 VMFL
Pick Father-Son David Walls Southport Qld

Are you suggesting that by finishing near the top we weren't allowed a pick before number 62?

Have a look at the missing picks over the period.

Even if you win the flag every year you should still have picks 16, 32 and 48 at the following draft (PPs aside).

95 - No Picks in rounds 1, 2 or 3
96 - No picks in rounds 1 or 2
97 - No pick in round 3
98 - No pick in round 2
99 - No picks in round 1, 2 or 3

That's 10 missing picks in the first 3 rounds over 5 years and 7 missing over the first 2 rounds.

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

To use golfing terms picks 1-5 are scratch markers and are the guns usually. Pick 6-70 range from 1-3 handicappers so unless your in the 1-5 range your in a lottery.

they drafted youth they just failed to develop that youth

Vandanberg and Massie would have been handy at the moment

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

The higher the pick the better the player (see below).

Carlton cost themselves a lot of good players in that period.

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