BluesMuse, if you're happy for Sticks to give that speech to the football community, then you have pretty low expectations of a company director and Vice President of an AFL club.

The fact is, ANYONE could've said what sticks said. It's childish piss-taking, and you read it on here all the time.

Sticks is not a company director and Vice President to be a Good Bloke Who Bleeds Navy Blue. He's there to help run our club professionally, to provide a vision to the carlton community and to provide the skills needed to make that vision a reality.

"We're Carlton - @#$%&! the rest". A pretty good way to end a drunken pub argument, but an extremely poor way to deliver a keynote speech to the football world.

Besides, what happened during last week was NOT the media's fault. Our club was shambolic, and our troubles last week were entirely self-inflicted. Sticks' speech was an attempt to deflect blame, nothing more nothing less.

I think if you're happy about him delivering a cliche' speech that I could write, also shows low expectations.

I am not saying what he said was the best outcome but it's certainly no better than a shit cliche' been said before yadda yadda yadda speech. I don't think it deserves the barrage of abuse from the fans either....once you take things into consideration.

What I am trying to say is that one is no better than the other, and what he did say showed more guts and character.

I love Carlton for it's ongoing character...I'ts fevs it's Maddens It's Deans it's (players before my time)....I don't want to follow a club who delivers speech's like Matthew Lloyd....

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

Maybe be someone can tell us all which stories were true and which are fiction.Fatprick has allready admitted that the Afl telling us to keep pagan was not correctly reported but most of us believed it and took it as gospel. We are worse than the media they at least get paid for bagging the club on a daily basis.

But Muse, you shouldn't compare Sticks with Matthew Lloyd. Lloyd's a player, and he's there to kick goals.

Sticks is our vice president, for God's sake. He's not there to rev up the troops before a big game and get all emotional. He's the guy we're all trusting to haul our club out of the shit both off the field and on.

Business plans... marketing plans... sponsorships... stadium deals... ground redevelopment... media relations... human resources... player welfare and development...

THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT VICE-PRESIDENTS ARE THERE FOR. You might think that hearing your vice-prez talking about stuff like visions for the future is cliched and boring... and a funny piss-taking speech is pretty much the same thing... but it's not.

Let's compare Sticks to Graeme McMahon if we're into Carlton/Essendon* comparisons. While he was busily working away at ensuring Essendon* is an off-field powerhouse, do you think he'd even remotely entertain the prospect of delivering an idiotic pie-night speech to the football community?

It's funny how many on this site are prepared to accept everything they read in the HUn or written by Carro and Fatprick.

Now we know the AFL were not involved, how do they expect us to believe the rest of the crap. That was my main issue all week - If that was true I would have been disgusted. It stinks of corruption and deceipt - but it never happened .

Did Brown believe the AFL were involved because of what the papers said? Or did he inform a reporter this had happened himself?? If either is true - how very naieve of him.

The media are the ones who should be considered in disarray - we have simply reviewed and made changes to the football and coaching departments as per review

If Mitchell was as innocent as everyone says during this whole affair, why should he fear losing his position?? Surely if the board "asked" him to present to the club for the senior job he is well within his rights to give them his ideas and have them 'take it or leave it' and it seems they left it.

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I don't think Sticks talking about the changes from 1991-95 would be a cliche?

I don't think Sticks talking about what it means to win a B&F would be a cliche. Do you know how it feels? I don't, and the majority of the players in the room wouldn't either.

I was giving examples of what he could have spoken about, of course it's not an exhaustive list.

But tell me what effect his pissed men's club speech would have given our club? Will journos now be 'scared' into writing nice things? Did he actually attack each journo over specific points? No, he resorted to name calling, childish digs and sarcastic rhetoric. None of it was helpful to our cause or anyone else's beyond Sticks getting a couple of whacks back at the media. Who would have just giggled into their instant coffee and thought what a fun time they'll have now with their football playthings.

I want people to stick up for our club, but I'd rather they channel their efforts (hell, especially as a vice president) into making sure the club doesn't keep on providing reasons to kick us. They also need a swift lesson in how to sell their decision to the media.

There was absolutely no way known anyone - press or otherwise - could draw a positive view about the Carlton Football Club from the activities of the past week.

As for why it's a public relations disaster - perhaps not in isolation, but when paired with all the preceding negativity from the press it only ensures that this 'bashing' continues in the media until we give them reason to stop: by making 1 or 2 good decisions.

It was a PR disaster because again it bring the name of Carlton into the forefront of the media's mind in a hugely negative sense (when there is a finals series on, no less). Who wants to be associated with that? I wouldn't want my company's name plastered all over the walls and jumpers of a club that can take no responsiblity for their actions or deliver well presented reasons as to why they cop a rough trot from the press.

It was poorly written, poorly delivered, and garnered no positive feeling for the club outside a few people whoare goiong to buy their memberships and invest their money anyway, like you and I TBM.

The media are absolutely crucial to business partnerships in footy. And burning that bridge even further down that what we had before is stupid.

The journos deserved a pasting - yeah, probably. Is that best done by behaving like a petulant schoolkid after a potful of crownies at a club function in front of a group of players who are sick of losing games of footy? I doubt it.

The media will write carlton stories because carlton sells papers. So how about we stop giving them reasons to sink the boot in like we've done in spades over the last week?

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Congratulations CK95

i am sick to @#$%&! death with bowing and scraping to those media scum. If you want to ignor crap written and published for fear of not getting favourable reporting in future then thank god you aren't on opur board. I want the club to move forward regardless of what the media think of us.

We aren't going anywhere, and once we start the climb back, those scum that describe themselves as journos will fall all over themselves to get Marc Murphy or Gibbsy or JK or AW to do a 2 page centre spread .

In two months all this will be forgotten and we'll be handing our #1 draft pick his navy blue jumper.

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I agree we don't have to take the crap that they've dished out, but as chucky quite rightly pointed out to me we'd had a great run of positive stories in the past month - Fev and his turnaround, Blue skies ahead from sheahan, heath scotland getting big wraps etc. Unnecessary feature articles no less. I think we've actually had a pretty good run from the media this year considering what we've given them to work with.

By criticising Sticks I'm not saying we need to sit back and take crap from the media. It's not mutually exclusive.

Smart operators know when to hit back and how to do it.

I fully support the board having a crack at the media, but they need to do it in a way where their approach garners respect and an acceptance that they've gone about it the right way.

You attack them when you're strong enough or convinced enough about your decisions to know that whatever they throw back at you, you're able to counter.

Sticks chose the friday after a week of complete unprofessionalism and widespread condemnation. He was the equivalent of a bloke holding a sharpened stone facing 40 tanks.

Such a stupid decision and even worse execution.

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Congratulations CK95

...with a sponsorship badge on it that cost the sponsor half of what it should. Coz we're so desperate.

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Congratulations CK95

Yes Bluehammer.

You are giving the same examples and using the same thinking as what we are told we should and I spose it is called for in some circumstances.... eg; Keep it positive, avoid criticising, talk of pride, talk of those bad 4 or 5 years and put them behind us...talk about what it means to win a Carlton B&F.

But what I'm I'm telling you is it has all been said before...and at our lowest ebb I think some abandonment should be forgiven.

The players have obviously copped it more than the fans and I doubt politically correct rhetoric will do anything to improve our situation and definitely won't be bought by the players.

If we are truly building a 'group' of players who will lead us into some success then I'm thinking they would welcome some character and arrogance....and would tire at the thought of shallow words. (well, I would)

I understand your thinking and everything, I just don't agree with it at this point in time.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

I reckon you have got it right Dukes. I've looked at it on YouTube, and it wasn't bad. Pointing out journos are lying is reasonable. Not sure I want to get down on my knees and tell crap journos they are great.

Kerna should have quoted Adlai Stevenson "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my journalist friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Carlton, we will stop telling the truth about them. "

And he was spot on re that pathetic misanthrope Patrick Smith. This is not to say thet the Board handled things well. Whatever the Board deceided and how they decided it should have been announced before the press knew the decision was being made, and ended there.

But it wasn't even funny.... was it?

Sticks was looking all smug as if he was landing punches but it wasn't even funny or witty or even insulting...

If you gonna have a dig at the media at least land some punches...

This is kindergarten stuff... and people were laughing... my god

Fair enough TBM. Differing views are great - if we all agreed on everything 10-0 well, we'd be incompetent .

I'd love the 'arrogance' to return, but arrogance in my opinion is best utilised when you have a reason for it. Right now we need to choose our battles really well. Choose the battles you know you can win. The current situation we're in means that we're going to struggle to win any battle with journos.

On field success or sustained improvement are the best things to shut em up. By next year I'd hope we'll at least have the latter. Then we're in a better position to brickbat the media for giving us stick.

So here's the paradox...

I don't want us to lie down and take shit from the media
I thought Sticks' speech was stupid and ill conceived.

I don't think they're mutually exclusive as some are inferring

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Congratulations CK95

Great line

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Congratulations CK95

At our lowest ebb is where we have the least wiggle room. We're a long way behind and pack and we need to make sure we do everything possible to catch up.

The club isn't struggling to attract it's own players, or the core Carlton supporters, the club is struggling to present an image that attract sponsors. One or the major channels for building that image of a club that sponsors want to be associated with is the media. Hell, the main reason sponsors are in it is for promotion through the media.

If we can't get lots of positive exposure through the media, we won't get good money from sponsors. Without that, we'll never fix the cash flow problems the club is having, and we'll never catch up.

Pollitcally correct rhetoric might not hit home with the hard core fans or the players, but it will with the sponsors. And that's what we badly need. It might suck that sometimes you just have to cop it sweet from the media, or if you fight back do it carefully and with facts. But in the end what Sticks did was short-sighted and I think did more harm than good.

Wit isn't everyones strong point...

Shouldn't stop yah from having a crack...sentiment is the same.

It wasn't that bad...I had a bit of a cack....he wasn't doing stand up....

Whether or not I know what's best for the club ....I just found something refreshing and appealing about it.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

If the AFL had no hand in telling Carlton to not sack Pagan and no conditions placed on our $1.5 million loan , then it's even worse that the Board backflipped.

Regardless of whether the media were involved, it's gutless.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Yes. Point taken.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

I was thinking the same thing.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

You are kidding, Right? You think it's better that the governing body make a club employ a coach based on the fact that they 'OWN' the club due to $1.5m loan, as opposed to assessing a coaches position and being flexible according to what the current, and prospective applicant presents??

How do we know a majority or all 10 board members were going to axe Pagan??? With the strike rate of journos this week, I'd need to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

Sheehan reports Pagan's gone. Then when he stays Mike claims that this is evidence that he was correct because they only decided to keep him because they were actually going to sack him This is just such fantastic journalism .

Right, Mike. Riiiiiiiiiight

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