Do not

Regards Cazzesman.

PS your turn.

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

I must confess to be intrigued by people getting so whipped up about our team before we've even played one four points game.

It's always the same old same old arguments taken from various angles and viewpoints, and still all end up with the old chestnut of "coulda woulda shoulda."

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

You 'coulda' shut up Warby.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

You know me paf....

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

At the end of the day Cazz would have the inside knowledge to put a stop to a fair bit of the scuttlebut, rumour, and innuendo that occurs on these pages about any one of a number of things. The fact that he often stays out of such posts is testament to his ability to put the interests of the club above his own personal self-defence and reputation. It takes a person of great fortitude to stand back and say nothing when those of us 'experts' out here question the club's decision to recruit / draft Bannister, Saddington, McLaren, Eddie, Bowyer, Mott and any one of a number of others whose names are continually raised in TC.
In the end, I think we all know that the Club's drafting / recruiting from 1994 - 2002 is the reason we are sitting where we are now. Since that time, there has been a new recruting manager employed, and a new recruiting philosophy employed by the club. That is, we will take kids wherever possible, but with recognition that they need the protection of time to develop in order to become the top-notch players we are all hoping for. Thus, the occasional need for mature bodies - with the unfortunate proviso that due to the financial situation of the club these players need to be cheap.
In the end, TC readers will be the ones who suffer if people like Cazz and Synbad and others with a knowledge of the workings of the club are discouraged from presenting opinions on subjects with which they have an intimate knowledge. Playfoul - you may disagree with Cazz, and may think that we shouldn't have got McLaren and Saddo. That's fine - you are entilted to your opinion, after all that is what TC is built on. Just please consider that we are fortunate to have input from someone who has had input into our recruiting - and realise that he may not be able to provide a full defence in order to preserve the best interests of the club occasionally.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Sorry Pafloyul

payfoul, just on your snippet at me - my remark was for SB's benefit because of a remark he made about the need to take my blue glasses off - I have stated many times we are all simply offering opinions, just wanted SB to see that he was doing exactly what he was accusing me of (only without the blue glasses) okay.

Are you and Caz the same? No I wouldn't be so rude as to presume so, besides I value Caz's imput.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Heavy stuff!!

TC is a wonderful forum connecting blues supporters far and wide, as well as giving us an insight into important developments within the club that we are not privy to, or lacking, due to the tyranny of distance.

TC gives those living outside of Melbourne as sense of belonging to our inner sanctum, and to those who count; fellow Carlton supporters.

Thanks for everyone's input. We are on the same team. Just keep it positive. Before you post something, ask yourself if you are going to sound like a Richmond supporter. If it is the case, rephrase it, so that it doesn't.

Thanks to all, and especially Cazz.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I'll bite
1. IF we are to pick up a player who has been on another clubs list he MUST be under 23 and still have some scope for physical development (ie no overly mature bodies)
2. We are prepared to take more punts on youth and be prepared to sit on the players until they are ready (ie if warnock was 4 yrs away from being ready then so be it - draft him if he has the potential)
3. We show fringe players on the list more faith and provide greater opportunity. Tell players like Prender/livo - we are going to play you for 10weeks at FB or wing etc - you will be left there as long as you are physically capable (ie fatigue) so long as you show 110% commitment. Irrespective of performance. A bit of faith goes a LONG way. I think its no coincidence that livo went backwards when martyn was brought in. That prender hasnt developed with the limited game time and roles.
4. Before removing older players from the list, consider the impact on the list - ie dont bemoan the lack of mature bodies and the need for retreads if you are going to cast off the seasoned bodies shortly afterwards unless it is a VERY VERY strong draft.
5. Cut the negativity from the club - particularly from board level etc. No player and no supporter wants to hear about the state of finances, player contracts, the number of A/B graders.
6. If a player gets promoted to play in the 1sts give them maximum possible game time for at least 5 games straight rather than 5 minutes in the seniors and then back to the reserves for the next 4 weeks rebuilding confidence.
7. Do not put up with poor onfield behaviour/attitude and questionable player temperment - Fev should have been traded 2 yrs ago (ie shortly after the breakout yr), Norman/Angwin/croad/mott should never have been drafted.
8. Drafting in general - Kenna should never have been drafted. A FP has a minimal impact on a game unless the team is getting the ball down there efficiently. A good team can survive or manufacture a FP - A FP cant survive in a poor team. No short term fixes unless the club is genuinely competitive (ie one backman away from genuinely competing for a top4 spot etc).
9. Come clean on the clubs finances, telstra dome move etc. The debt level fluctuates wildly from yr to yr. REAL debt is money owing, not money written off etc. No more fudged accountancy to make the previous admin continue to look bad. The admin is in there to fix it - we are into the 4th yr sponsorship has arguably gone backwards (with the lack of major sponsor etc). Cashflow has gone backwards with the loss of the social club - which relates to the dome move - $3mill upfront sounds good though why did the analysis not take into account the ground upkeep costs, impact on social club etc? due dilligence anyone? Why has there been no mention of the ground upkeep costs previously?
10. A proper review of the coaching panel. In 02 we won the spoon on the back of very heavy injuries. In 05 we came last again. In that time there have been countless flogggings. You cant have that many 10goal losses over 3 yrs and have NO ONE in the coaching staff held accountable.
11. Playing list - ie deluca - should be played in the VFL until he actually dominates a game there or develops the ability to take contested marks on a regular basis (has he ever done in the time he has been on the list?). Why was he drafted? It appears he is a better forward than ruck and thats not saying much, yet our weakness has always been the ruckline. bannister/wiggins/sporn/mcgrath - 4 similar players who perform a similar role, none of which has stood out to any great extent yet we have carried al 4 for 2+yrs (which should be more than enough time to whittle that list down to 2 players and bring in 2 younger players etc)

Keep it rolling Cazz.Reckon all TCers should be more than gratefull that you are prepared to give us a bit of insight into the workings of things.I dont expect the whole box and dice as i reckon you have to play your cards close to your chest to a certain extent.Shit......! You cant spill your guts on everything thats goin down.If we knew the truth and nothin but the whole truth............shit ! i shudder at the thought.No,a few snippets here and there will do me.
Reckon its fair enough to question Cazz's sanity,but i reckon its completely out of line to question his honesty and integrity.

Reckon you are doing a fantastic service to all us TCers Cazz.
Just keep 'em rollin' pal.

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All my dangerous friends

Yeah Cazzesman, we all love you!

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I stole Sheedy's Gatorade...

Stop bleeding for the jumper - it really is ordinary

Btw, on Cazzes point on salary space when recruiting saddington.





No disrespect BUT I think that it is ludicrous to suggest that we could not have afforded to draft a teensager onto the AFL minimum salary as your post seems to imply. Particularly given that we subseqently picked up McClaren in the preseason draft who is without doubt NOT on minimum salary.

Given the wide open nature of the draft, few people would be able to reliably predict what players would be available at 52 on draft day (as opposed to pick 52 itself) ie swallow who was within the top30 of most selections ended up being pick 43. Given that how does one categorically rule out ANY draft pick in such an even draft?

Also on contracts - 2 yrs isnt that long to have a young player on your list. It essentially becomes a 1yr contract if you use the pick on a player who you are content to not have to develop yourself for the 1st yr (ie a bottom aged who plays school footy etc). Worse case scenario you pick a semi-project ie an ex basketballer who has shown some glimpses of potential but nowhere near developed (ie played less footy than roughhead/maric etc). High risk but high reward.

Dont think anyone has questioned his honesty and integrity - people do however have a right to question his statements. Or should we all be lemmings?

Fair enough. Some good points there, and I appreciate that you are willing to lay it on the line.

A few of these measures though concern me.



Last year we took a number of hidings due to the lack of solid back-up for Barnaby. How would you approach membership and sponsorship if we must endure four years of waiting for a decent ruck department?



and



These two points seem to contradict each other. Prenda and Livo should be 10 weeks game time irrespective of form, while De Luca should be relegated to the Ants until he dominates a game? Should Prenda and Livo dominate at Ants level before getting their ten weeks? How long should they dominate for? 1 game, 2 games, 5 games etc?



I agree with this one strongly. We've done a shitload of work to weed out negativity from the playing list (Angwin, Norman, Beaumont, Campo etc) now it's time we clamped up in the media unless we're telling them how great we are.




I think we've already addressed this. All the youngsters we took at this years draft had big wraps for temperament (junior captains etc). I think the upside of Fev is such that he's dodged a couple of bullets. I think if his talent wasn't so huge we'd have already seen the back of him. Still, it's a solid theory.



I think the drafting of the likes of Kenna was due to the restrictions we were under at the time. Again, now the restrictions are off, I believe this is a thing of the past.



Again, I agree with the theory, but I still believe that the situation Carlton found itself in in the past three years is quite extraordinary, thus and extraordinary amount of patience may be required with the coaching panel. At any rate, this is a pivotal year - Denis and co have had two cracks at the draft now, it's time to start showing some real improvement. So perhaps 2006 is the first year were we can properly ascertain the job that Denis and co have done/are doing.

With regards to recruitment philosophy, which areas should we concentrate on at the next draft?

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

1. we should be careful of absolutisms - take a play we 'judge' to have something to offer - it may work out, it may not.


2. more punts on youth - you checked our efforts lately? We are taking the youth path with some mature bodies to assist.

3. Firstly Livo has gone 'backwards" (is it really backwards or greater expectations, more demands less support etc etc etc) anyway Livo has gone backwards because of injuries - blame that on Pagan too do we?

And We end up with a rotation of coaches because in the end (ie 100 pont losses0 gives everyone the shits and people will demand heads roll. its fine foir us to sit on our arses and spout this crap but we are tlaking about people with jobs, with income/familes/houses.lifestyles etc. They mayt be overpaid or underpaid. they are paid and are entitled to portect their ability to earn just like the rest of us.

4. Lets remember the club doesn't moan about it - we do. The club simply recruits who it sees fit and cuts from the list who it sees fit given a whole range of factors.

5. I agree

6. Take simmo, please take simmo - seems to have developed nicely given the way he was treated now we can soiut this and thats about him but the truth is HE SEEMS TO HAVE DEVELOPED NICELY. Fisher was played, Murph looks like he will be played... Seems to me The coaching staff makes calls on players. I want them to make calls not to treat everyone the same. Might not agree with their calls but I do like the way ourt kids are developing.

7. Unusual circumstances meant we tried a few things - Some didn't work - Norman almost did (did win a rising star) and Angwin was a talent. Setanata was also a risk and he is coming along.

8. Drafting in general - Kenna should never have been drafted. A FP has a minimal impact on a game unless the team is getting the ball down there efficiently. A good team can survive or manufacture a FP - A FP cant survive in a poor team. No short term fixes unless the club is genuinely competitive (ie one backman away from genuinely competing for a top4 spot etc). Again rememeber exclusion. We tried a few things. Kenna didn;t work, Betts did.

9. Actually I liked the point about no talking about fincances otherwise these seems to depend on the answers you want.

10. Agree though i do like Terry and Dempsey.

11. In your opinion. I like DeLuca, think he changes things around, makes it harder for opposition defenses. But thats just my opinion.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Of course you are entitled to question what Cazz has to say 4thchicken.But surely you dont expect Cazz to come out with every bit of nitty gritty details.The bloke has to restrain himself and show a bit of discretion.I think what we are getting from Cazz is more than enough.I reckon he is going over and above the call of duty providing us with what he has.
Thats not to say i agree with everything he says.For instance,i would have taken Clark before Kennedy.Reckon Clark was an absolute special myself.I questioned Cazz on that choice,and he gave me a detailed response as to why we chose Kennedy in front of Clark.I was very satisfied with his reasoning.Time will tell.In fact when Cazz has been challenged he always provides a logical and detailed response.What more could you ask of him ?

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All my dangerous friends

dannyboy... my source is impeccable and was in the inner sanctum of Brissy.

Taking Saddington will have no bearing to our future.
A Power would have...

Simple really.

Challenging Cazzman is abit unfair.. because what they must do is make the real choice whilst the rest of speculate.

Glad in not in some decision making process and i can sit here and bag all i like... and leave it up to speculation.

The thing about Cazz is he will always give you reasons as he understands them.. you cant do better than that.

Still i reckon were on thre wrong rd when it comes to retreads.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

deano
I've actually been calling for the exact same things for the past 4 years so I've been very consistent there (for the record, yes i would have retained brittain and traded fev etc).


The ruck problem isnt new and one of my criticisms has been that we have never tried addressing this properly. However presuming we started from ground zero, I would completely modify the game plan to limit those hidings. clint eastwood once said, 'a man's got to know his limitations' - The thing is we have NEVER had a game plan under pagan that played to our lists strengths or minimised its weaknesses. What constitutes a solid backup to Barnaby? I found Bryan quite servicable in games last yr and prender has been ok in a pinch previously. As others have pointed out we also have the rookies (one or both of which might be promoted eventually) so we wont be waiting 4 yrs in the ruck. Some young ruckmen are also ready to go sooner (McEntree was one that i recall reading about). Might not be a groundbreaking dominant ruckman but he is CHEAPER and probably has more developmental upside to mclaren. The loss in strength of the ruck between the two wont have THAT great an impact on onfield performance as some might suggest. Also when I talk young players I'm not referring specifically to ruck either so 4yrs is the longer version. Its a LOT easier to sell to members/sponsors though that you have a plan rather than we will just see who pops up.




The big difference though is that deluca has already has that extended period of game time and hasnt shown enough to justify his spot. Deluca was recruited as a ruckman and most would agree that he cant really ruck. He played most of 2004 and the 1st 1/2 of 2005 and has yet to show any signs of 'making' it despite plenty of opportunity in the ruck and upforward (where he often takes on the 3rd/4th defender and would expect a 10cm height advantage). As a tall forward option he averages less than 1goal/game with only one bag of 3 (and possibly just one of 2?) and would have to be behind Fisher, Fev, waite and whitnall (and arguably kennedy or maybe even hartlett) so his only real spot is in the ruck. In terms of ruck performance he has shown me less than prender or bryan at AFL level. So why is he in the team? Again i ask whether he has ever given a dominant performance in the bullants before?

Compare delucas opportunities to livingston and prendergast - both who have had extended stints at VFL previously and that have acquited themselves well there. Both players have also shown something at AFL level previously to suggest that they could make it. So why not the opportunity? Was it a coincidence that livingston went backwards when martyn was brought in? or when he gets dragged on and off the ground? Was it a coincidence that prender went backwards last yr after showing so much promise in 2004? or was it more that he was given a lot less game time/shown a lot less faith? - I dont believe in coincidences.

[/quote]I think the drafting of the likes of Kenna was due to the restrictions we were under at the time. Again, now the restrictions are off, I believe this is a thing of the past. Again, I agree with the theory, but I still believe that the situation Carlton found itself in in the past three years is quite extraordinary, thus and extraordinary amount of patience may be required with the coaching panel. At any rate, this is a pivotal year - Denis and co have had two cracks at the draft now, it's time to start showing some real improvement. So perhaps 2006 is the first year were we can properly ascertain the job that Denis and co have done/are doing.

With regards to recruitment philosophy, which areas should we concentrate on at the next draft?