Nothing would make me happier than to see the win a flag this year.
And i have nothing personal against Harry. I just believe our team could be better with picks 5 and 13 than with Harry going forward.
He's a decent player and whilst some teams are desperate for a key forward, it's a sellers market. He's about to enter a long term deal, rumoured to be around 800k per year. For me, I want something more than 1 top 5 finish in the club B&F for that sort of imposition on our TPP.

I like our structure with 1 ruck, 1 key forward and a forward ruck. And our results this year proved that to be our most successful. I look at TDK on the weekend and I see the scope in his game when he has the opportunity to impose himself. He presented and marked upfield as well as Harry has this year and he was reliable in front of goal. He creates a contest. He doesn't flop to ground looking for free kicks and he doesn't hang out the back looking for cheap handball goals.
That's what I want from a 200cm+ key forward. Presence and commitment to the contest.
Harry has a lot of ability but he isn't a reliable team player IMHO. I look at McGovern going back in the final quarter, providing a shield for Acres to mark the ball. He didn't want it, he wanted the team to get the goal and Acres was the highest percentage option. Would you truly expect Harry to have that mindset? I wouldn't.
Consider the options. If we received 5, 13 and offered up next years first, could we snaffle Harley Reid and WC's 2024 second? Whilst retaining this years first to hopefully get a developing key defender.
You have to give something to get something.

If Harry stays and we have success in the future. Brilliant. I just believe we are better structured without 2 rucks and 2 key forwards. That's what it's about. Opinions. I'm not saying my view is correct. Just adding my thoughts to the list management thread.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Sent from my Nokia G21 using Tapatalk

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#DonTheStash

I think you are correct stating "I'm not sure they are", because it comforts me when you make statements as fact. Right now Levi is not playing. Right now, I'm sure 26yo Harry would be of more interest that 32yo Levi.

In a Final, Harry had 7 score involvements in a half. That's a good footballer.

One minute you focus on Harry's kicking this year (as the be all to end all) and next minute you tarnish Harry as a footballer by comparing him to Levi to make a point.

You can disrespect and ignore his coaches, but the point is that you train all summer/preseason on things you will bring to the table during the season. Harry's kicking at Training and preseason was great, but something happened to his kicking, not his football, between the ears on match day.

Hansen has said it can't be changed now, but will over the next preseason "involve adjusting his routine and technique changes which are hard to make during the season.

Both players you are comparing have played 20 games.

Harry has kicked 27.27 and missed completely 13. That's 67 shots at goal. Marks 135. Tackles 34. Disposals 237.
Levi has kicked 24.11. That's 35 shots at goal. Marks 95. Tackles 29. Disposals 195.

I know you will exaggerate to make your point. Most do when it comes to Harry.

Harry and Charlie are the envy of the rest of the comp. Hawkins and Cameron are the other 2.
If Harry would kick straight like he has in the past, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

He is so important to us, and yes he deflates you and me when he misses, but his team mates stick fat with him and each other and that's why this unit is going places.

Harry's kicking for goal can be fixed. He wants to fix it. I put money on it he will.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

they actually don't ... you can see him deflating the team, guys throwing their heads back when he misses easy shots.


leigh montagna talked about the psyche of the mids when key forwards miss easy shots after you've worked your ass off running both ways to make those shots happen. a couple of misses is fine. but when he's missing gimmes, or 4-5 set shots a game (as he did Vs saints, dogs, bombers this year etc) it really starts to effect the team. and i agree with him.


the comparison to levi is simple. similar output, one is being paid 800k one is being paid 300k per year.

is harry's output really worth more than double on our cap? i say no.




i'd love nothing more than for harry to be a gamewinner this saturday. for him to kick 4 or 5 in a match winning performance. I'd love to be wrong about him.

i just don't think i am.


and i also think this 23/24 offseason we could sell him at the highest we could. clubs will all think they can fix him (maybe they can?) but if harry puts two back to back seasons of woeful performance together. offseason 24/25 he will be worth pennies and we'll have to pay a team to take him - much similar to pies and grundy.

I think you’re clutching at straws here, take a look at how TDK “earned” his second goal and have a rethink about your crack at Harry “flopping around”.

Then once you’ve done that, take a look at the incident where Harry was concussed and have a rethink about your other crack at Harry being soft and waiting for the cheap handball out the back.

I get your main point about Harry’s yips around kicking for goal, which is a recent thing and can be fixed, but anything beyond that is hyperbole.

I get where you are coming from. I like your thinking trying to extract better value.

History says there's no guarantees you will succeed from the Trade off ie Trading the Coleman medalist for Reid, maybe good in 3-4 years time, but certainly not in the next 1-3 years imo.

Harry is our CHF whilst our window is open. You want to trade Harry to make us better moving forward. I like the idea of thinking forward which is what we've done since this rebuild started in 2015. If I'm right, I read your vision as planning for the future by developing a key back with our first pick, and possibly recruiting Harley Reid for Harry, to play alongside Walsh and Cerra when Cripps retires in 3-4 years time.

If we get Reid, he's not going to set the world on fire in year 1 or 2. I've seen Reid close up against the bigger bodies and he's competitive and will be possibly great, but it will take time. I think Walsh's wheels are far more superior than "man child" Reid's, and that's why I don't expect Reid to make them same impression Walsh has.

In the mean time, during Reid's "development period" we have Flags to play for, and we need a CHF, FF and a Fwd-Ruck to compete for a flag imo, not just a KPF-Ruck and KPF.

Midfield isn't our problem. We can't fit in Dow or Kennedy and will lose one of them. Who is Reid going to push out? What's the benefit now?

The real reason we are having this discussion isn't the lack of competitiveness from harry (I get he does ask for the free at times, but not always: sometimes he receives the free that's there, and others he doesn't. He is competing when that is happening and can't ignore that), it is because his kicking for goal has been really bad this year for an 800K player.

The 2 rucks 2 KPs is a side issue because Harry doesn't ruck and that's because he's our CHF. I don't like losing a CHF to play ruck, nor a FF. We have 2 Coleman Medalists playing those KPF roles. One is not kicking well this year. He's got the yips.

I say, if Levi can improve his kicking for goal when he couldn't kick for shite, Harry can, and will, because he has been a good kick in the past and his coaches are committed to fix his kicking over summer, to get back on par, to play a huge role in our window.

TDK kicks 2 goals in the first quarter and none for the rest of the game. We kick a total of 11 goals from 19 shots at goal, 20 if you include Kemps selfish shot. Dees had 26 shots at goal with 2 OOF (28 shots) and Dees should have won the game. You think TDK, Charlie and Pitto are the answer based on that?

They aren't the answer. We need to find more goals, this week and next year. Harry's return gives us another avenue to goal, and frees up Charlie. They are a combo and are developing that combo and the MC value that combo.

TDK is competitive with the ground ball, and defensive minded providing forward pressure and nimble. Having him as the 3rd tall isn't a problem anymore, as he doesn't slow us down by having him Forward and giving the ruck a chop out when needed. And we dont lose our structure with the 2 KPs.

You like to suggest Gov is more team oriented than Harry based on what you saw in one marking contest? Are you suggesting if Acres and Harry were there 2 on 1 Harry wouldn't be team oriented? Harry makes a lot of team focused sacrifices, but you don't like to give credit where credit is due to make a point about flopping for a free, or pigeon holing Harry as a decoy. Harry is more than those things.

In a GF, playing one ruck is plain and simple suicide with the quality of midfields we face at the pointy end of the season. Worked in 1990 for Pies with ex NM player Brown a revelation as the Fwd-Ruck, and worked 20 years later with Grigg in 2017, but neither rucks were injured on both those days.

Give Lions, a sniff in the guts and its all over as they prey on our deficiency: a tiring ruckman. Its the Lions and Pies and GWS and Dees and Port we will be competing with for a flag in years to come: our window.

If Pitto is the issue, we find another developed "ready" No 1 ruck, or another Fwd Ruck and put TDK in as the No 1 ruck.

The question is whether we will extract better value by trading Harry during our Premiership window which is NOW

In your model, if TDK or Pitto are injured, in a GF, we have one sole ruck and one FF. I don't like that possibility, for the sake of getting Reid on our list.

We agree to disagree on both points: Harry for Reid, and 2 rucks vs one ruck.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Yeah, thanks for your contribution.
See the difference in Bondi's post to yours? He comes back with counter views and we agree to disagree.
He comes back with how our structure works with or without 2 rucks/2 KPF.
Compare that to the rubbish you served up.
Look at my post compared to yours. It's just an opinion. I'm just putting up a discussion point in the list management thread.
I came up with stats on our record when he's in the side. About how TDK performed when given the opportunity. About Harry's record in the B&F compared to his cost to our TPP.
And you came up with what? .
As for TDK's second goal, he was blatantly pushed in the back when he jumped. That's not flopping! Come back with a bit more than that.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I prefer to believe Harry's team mates than what Montagne experienced more than a decade ago.

I get it can be deflating, but these days its only for a second. Players shrug that off and get back to the process. McCrae's team are trained to laugh off mistakes because trained minds can put the miss behind them and reload. That's what we are all about. Together Stronger. Mistakes happen to every player. This game is not for the weak minded.

300 v 800 for the player with weapons?

I'd take 26yo Harry for 800K because I value what he brings to the team and believe he will get back his kicking, than having 2 32yo Levi's who is very limited. Harry is also one of the quickest 200cm going around. They don't grow on trees. Speed needs to matched with speed. So we take out the most athlete KPD from the goal area...so many intangibles.

Lets agree to disagree. I know Harry can kick goals. I know the preseason will be focused on rebuilding Harry's set shots and getting him stronger and fitter.

And if Harry does help us get over the line, or doesn't but kicks 4-5 goals what will your position be then?

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I agree with all of this.
As I have said before Harry won a Coleman, he should be considered for trade.
I really like him and the idea of having two key forwards killing it, but Harry isn't.
I also don't subscribe to not being able to change his kicking during season.
I've taught over 300 wakeboarders, numerous people with golf swings and helped a few rucks, forwards and others with their kicking accuracy when I was younger.
Bio-mechanics can be taught and adjusted all year round, if the person really wants to change.
I have also seen that if someone like Harry that can't kick goals but can hit targets and read the play, maybe he needs a run in defence instead.
Like McGovern or Jones have.
But in saying all of this I really hope he works out his issues as having two key forwards and TDK floating up forward would be epic and unstoppable by any defence.

No. I think they're the answer based upon results. 5 wins out of 5, most against the best sides. We won the game against a top 4 side. Again!
The shots at goal you mention are also due to the pressure you're under and where you take them from. I think our shots are more central when we play 1 tall forward. We create more space and our smalls (Owies, Martin, Motlop) and getting opportunities in a more central area. We're also getting more shots from pushing up the ground and our smalls running back into space.

As for Reid, he'll probably be hitting his straps as a top AFL player at around 21Y/O. Patrick Cripps will be 31 then. George Hewett will be 30. He was just a suggestion. If not Reid, we could hit the draft with 3 first rounders and future first.
Anyway, it was just food for thought. If we stick with Harry, hopefully he sorts his kicking out and goes on to kick a shitload of goals.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Its all food for thought.

I have been really excited by the list. Moreso when we invested in Acres and Hollands. I believe we have the depth to carry us to the Holy Grail...with a bit of luck (with injury).

When some suggested 7-8 changes to the list, I just couldn't even see 4-5, or I didn't want to see.
When the point was made we need to delist 2 rookies to revert back to maximum AFL list numbers, posters ignored that.

When the only way to keep most of the list together and make the 3 compulsory changes to the Primary List was to elevate a couple rookies and "demote" a couple of Primary List players to the rookie list, many posters had already put a line through some of the players including the kids.

I had put a line through Fogarty, Plowman, Ed, LOB, Philp (because the medicos had written him off for the whole year) but wanted to keep Dow only after watching his first 4 VFL games live and seeing some strength in the tackle I hadn't seen before and I wanted to trade Fisher. Other posters were over injury prone players out of contract like Marchbank, Cuningham, Philp and Gov and expected Silvagni, like Dow, to leave for a better offer.

Today Dow is wanted, Fogarty is signed up, Gov is signed up, Fisher is up for trade, as is LOB, and Marchbank and Cuningham have been part of our comeback and managed to stay on the field at the pointy end (and may well be Premiership Players).

Things change, and throughout the year its all Food for Thought. I do think there has been a lot of bias with evidence given to make a point with so many intangibles not factored, but I guess that's how a debate is won.

Then come the end of the year, the List Manger does his thing, we all either vent or celebrate, we adapt and reload with I told you so and so, and offer more food for thought.

Its a good place TC. Lots of smart posters and a place fools are not taken lightly and don't last long. We are all a family, The Blue Brethren, and typically we just can't bite our tongue at times. I know, I bite, then regret it. Its all for a cause I say.

What else is there to do when our team is on the verge of playing in a Grand Final after Harry missed all those shots during the year.

We debate and fingers crossed we witness the miracle; winning the 2023 flag. Come on Footy Gods look after us. Then we reload with more Food for Thought.

Go Blues

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Settle mate, you're very prickly today!

I said I agree with your main point around Harry's bad kicking, if he kicked with 80% accuracy this year would you still be proposing a trade?

I think Bondi covered the structure bit quite well, so not much to add there, what stood out for me was that you seemed to be going well beyond the "structure" and "accuracy" arguments to claiming that Harry was soft and constantly played for free kicks (unlike TDK). Take off your blue eyed blinkers for a moment and take another look at the TDK free kick, yes he is pushed but he made damn sure everyone knew there was a push by accentuating it hugely, I've seen that level of pushing let go by the umpire many times and was surprised they gave him the free kick. My point was not about whether it was a fee kick or not, it was about whether TDK "flopped around" (your words) like Harry. I would say he definitely did "flop around" just like Harry does sometimes.

I notice you ignored my point about Harry's approach on the ball not being "soft" all the time, where's your "counter argument"? All you can say is "thanks for your contribution", which I assume is sarcasm, and "the rubbish you serve up" and my post is "just opinion". Well, I was responding to your "opinion" too so don't shoot the messenger.....

Don't need one. You used the word "soft", not me. Let alone saying it's "all the time"
Do I believe Harry could have more strength in the contest and be more physical in his intent? At times, yes.
But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate his effort. He gives 100%, just not always with as much physicality as I would like from a 200cm+ forward.
In the past I believe he's played for Harry. He has measured himself by goals and personal wins. I believe he's now far better in that regard but I don't believe he is a reliable, sacrificing team mate. As I said previously, when McGovern went back and blocked for Acres on Saturday, I wouldn't expect Harry would even consider it let alone do the same.

So if the right deal came along, I would take it. And I suspect Harry would too. I suspect he wants to be the main man and if the right club pumped up his tyres and offered the right opportunity, I wouldn't be surprised to see him seriously consider it.
But the deal has to be right because he is a very good AFL player. I just believe our forward structure is better with Charlie and TDK having mids and small at their feet. Then use the resulting picks to build our next group.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Get rid of the dominant CHF because it’s just easier to finish last all the time.

Take the high draft picks & circle jerk to the ‘upside’.



It’s been too long for some of you. You’ve forgotten how to get to the top of the hill and stay there.

It’s ok. We’ll get you there.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Yeah. Except we've won every game without him. Every game. Against the best opposition. Great logic from you.
I can see where the circle jerk is happening.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Fair enough

We’ve won nothing. Yet.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

45 players put up for trade targets in AFL player movement frenzy
from news.com.au

AFL Trade Radio’s list of 45 players up for trade

Paddy Dow, Jack Billings, Deven Robertson, Zac Fisher, James Harmes, Jordon Sweet, Daniel McKenzie, Liam Ryan, Brandan Parfitt, Liam Henry, Tom Doedee, Jarryd Lyons, Nick Haynes, Sam Hayes, Mabior Chol, Hunter Clark, Zak Jones, Finlay Macrae, Brodie Grundy, Shane McAdam, Brandon Zerk-Thatcher, Elijah Hollands, Jackson Mead, Denver Grainger-Barras, Esava Ratugolea, Lochie O’Brien, Tarryn Thomas, Ben McKay, Khai Lohman, Todd Goldstein, James Jordon, Scott Lycett, Matt Flynn, Ivan Soldo, Dylan Stephens, Braydon Preuss, Jade Gresham, Caleb Marchbank, Nick Coffield, Hugo Ralphsmith, Tyler Brockman, Adam Tomlinson, Orazio Fantasia, Tom Curley, Trent Bianco.


Not sure I expected Marchy to be on this list

That's good cru. Cheeky but good.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

And that is precisely correct, if our objective is to climb that hill we've been climbing since 2015, post Judd era.

Its about the whole group.
If we have got a group of players from the draft, hand picked, for the price they accept and we can go on and comply to the AFL's games, we are doing everything right, and need to move 3 players from the Primary list, not because we want to, but because we have to.

The list is great. WE are climbing the mountain.

We are top 4. Some people can't believe it. We want to add, not subtract.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue