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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:56 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:44 am
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Blue Vain wrote:
I'd back us to win Thursday night if we make the right changes.


So what are the right changes? I wouldn't be surprised if there were no changes (barring injuries).


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:35 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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AGRO wrote:
There are times when a deft tap to a player in the clear - rather than taking possession and taking the tackle is the best option.

Yep.
I've watched a few games this round and I really hoped in the off season we would've worked on tapping the ball to players when under pressure and running hard to block for them when players take possession or are about to.
The better teams do this all the time and is one of our major weaknesses IMO.
It's a whole team problem and if we want to become a running defending/attacking team, these are the two basics we need to master.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:40 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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AGRO wrote:
There are times when a deft tap to a player in the clear - rather than taking possession and taking the tackle is the best option.


Correct agro but our players apparently need that to be taught to them these days.
One thing i admire about richmond these days, they play like a team, for one another.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:20 pm 
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Bert Deacon

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LOB was only following team instructions. The blue powerpoint sign was most likely telling the team to close the game down, no risky behaviour, keep possession. When LOB received the ball from Acres, he was immediately swamped by three Tigers with a fourth Tiger between him and Charlie, the closest Carlton player to him. And yes, as per instructions he took the tackle and he had barely hit the ground when the siren went. And Charlie wasn't screaming out for the ball - he to knew what the play was - safety. And remember none of the players knew exactly how much time was left.

I know everyone loves giving LOB a clip under the ear but I think this time you can blame our tacticians on the sidelines. Should you want to blame someone, that is.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:53 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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I strongly believe there is not one team in the AFL where all 22 players are equally astute with every nuance in the game.

We cannot expect every single player to apply instinctively to every nuance and get the same result.

LOBs are great runner and can kick well on his left, TDK can jump and reach, Jezza is god…..

Last year I noticed from the get go Vossy had the boys hitting the contest harder, I saw shepherds, I saw tap ons. I saw change. We all saw change and posted it. Game plan is another thing. But we did see a great start and injury and the game plan change 3-4 times. Nothing stays the same.

It’s round 1 and we drew with a more accomplished team. We played Roosy/ Swans footy, Wallace’s super flood in 2000, whatever you want to call it. The boys committed to that game 100% after half way in the first quarter. Tigers came at us and had us on the ropes at times. We nearly roped the dope and snatched the game.

I’m glad we can play that game style when needed. And the boys learned that playing the Swans in a praccy. In the last 3 quarters.

Some posters are a bit hard on Vossy, and the players. They all make mistakes but we are learning. I see growth.

And LOB learned to take the tackle and kill the ball from the mistake he made against the Dees in game 21 Where he belted it forward into the opposition. He couldn’t switch on instictively from that hard lesson, even if he could. It’s etched in his head for 6 months.

No one’s fault. I’m sure LOB has growth from that. The wheels are turning. We drew with a Top 4 team. Bring on the Cats at the same ground, and less slippery.

Walsh isn’t far away.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:29 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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tommi wrote:
Hey Billy boy….

we need 2 Jeffy Garletts and an Eddie Betts…!


kindest regards tommi

And a Gartlett…at least one Gartlett….please.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:43 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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YES Muzz….

clearly…!


kindest regards tommi

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:41 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:44 am
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muzza wrote:
tommi wrote:
Hey Billy boy….

we need 2 Jeffy Garletts and an Eddie Betts…!


kindest regards tommi

And a Gartlett…at least one Gartlett….please.


Yeah..Jeffy knew how to light the place up...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:45 pm 
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John Nicholls
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Sidefx wrote:
AGRO wrote:
There are times when a deft tap to a player in the clear - rather than taking possession and taking the tackle is the best option.

Yep.
I've watched a few games this round and I really hoped in the off season we would've worked on tapping the ball to players when under pressure and running hard to block for them when players take possession or are about to.
The better teams do this all the time and is one of our major weaknesses IMO.

It's a whole team problem and if we want to become a running defending/attacking team, these are the two basics we need to master.


You already know this but there are three modes of play: you've got the ball, your opponent has the ball, the ball is in dispute.

Tapping is a skill that can only be done when ball is in dispute (clearly).

It's not as simple as "practice tapping the ball to advantage". Tapping is easy. But if your whole team isn't in on the play and is structured to support it right around the ground, it's easy to tap to dis-advantage and turn the ball over while your own teammates are out of position.

So what you appear to be saying is, you hoped we would play another "brand" of chaos/surge football a-la Bitchmond and C**wood.

Sadly we simply aren't fast enough on the ground. We're not set up for that kind of football. It's been a problem for years - too slow right around the ground. Who is our around-the-ball, super nimble, super quick player with exquisite skills? Who's our pickett, who's our bolton, who's our tyson stengle, top clubs have a few of these types on their list.... do we have one? Name one???

If we win the contested ball (ball is in dispute) as Voss keeps harping on about and if we maintain possession with effective patterns and delivery then the affects of all of this chaos, running off half back schtick can be nullified. If we can't win the footy, and if we can't keep possession and maintain connection - we'll get beat.

Two diametrically opposed basic principles of football I suppose. We'll soon see if the School of Voss or the School of Hardwick/McRae wins out...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:18 am 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:44 am
Posts: 539
robertbb wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
AGRO wrote:
There are times when a deft tap to a player in the clear - rather than taking possession and taking the tackle is the best option.

Yep.
I've watched a few games this round and I really hoped in the off season we would've worked on tapping the ball to players when under pressure and running hard to block for them when players take possession or are about to.
The better teams do this all the time and is one of our major weaknesses IMO.

It's a whole team problem and if we want to become a running defending/attacking team, these are the two basics we need to master.


You already know this but there are three modes of play: you've got the ball, your opponent has the ball, the ball is in dispute.

Tapping is a skill that can only be done when ball is in dispute (clearly).

It's not as simple as "practice tapping the ball to advantage". Tapping is easy. But if your whole team isn't in on the play and is structured to support it right around the ground, it's easy to tap to dis-advantage and turn the ball over while your own teammates are out of position.

So what you appear to be saying is, you hoped we would play another "brand" of chaos/surge football a-la Bitchmond and C**wood.

Sadly we simply aren't fast enough on the ground. We're not set up for that kind of football. It's been a problem for years - too slow right around the ground. Who is our around-the-ball, super nimble, super quick player with exquisite skills? Who's our pickett, who's our bolton, who's our tyson stengle, top clubs have a few of these types on their list.... do we have one? Name one???

If we win the contested ball (ball is in dispute) as Voss keeps harping on about and if we maintain possession with effective patterns and delivery then the affects of all of this chaos, running off half back schtick can be nullified. If we can't win the footy, and if we can't keep possession and maintain connection - we'll get beat.

Two diametrically opposed basic principles of football I suppose. We'll soon see if the School of Voss or the School of Hardwick/McRae wins out...


I'm having a bit of a laugh imagining Vossy at training saying to his squad, "we're gonna have some tapping practice today. OK each pair has a ball and I want you to tap it to each other. Tapping only. Don't pick the ball up, just tap. We'll do picking the ball up next week. Right, do that for about an hour."

Anyhow, you're right, those posters with tapping envy are thinking of the chaos game. Under that game, a player with the ball in dispute is more likely to tap the ball into open space because he knows half a dozen of his teammates will turn up in that space. IN a similar situation, a Carlton player would be more likely to grab the ball and take the tackle so our big mids can set up and maintain control. Anyhow, you've already said that.

I don't agree we've been slow for years - lacking talent was the main issue and we've spent the years praying for a saviour in the form of a big-bodied mid. Now we've got a back yard full of saviours and the game plan we play is the game plan we have to play. So the choice of game plan is, and should be, directly related to the cattle you've got. We're trying to go Hardwick by adding more run and speed to our list and he's gone in the Voss direction by adding a couple of bulls.

It's great to have quality footballers in any position but I think our priority is some run and zip in our on-ball brigade more so then small forwards. In fact, and I know this is sacrilege, but if Sydney says we'll give you Chad Warner if you give us Cripps, I couldn't get the deal done quick enough.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:00 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Sidefx wrote:
AGRO wrote:
There are times when a deft tap to a player in the clear - rather than taking possession and taking the tackle is the best option.

Yep.
I've watched a few games this round and I really hoped in the off season we would've worked on tapping the ball to players when under pressure and running hard to block for them when players take possession or are about to.
The better teams do this all the time and is one of our major weaknesses IMO.
It's a whole team problem and if we want to become a running defending/attacking team, these are the two basics we need to master.



It’s football IQ I’m not sure it can be trained.

If anyone remembers our Mosquito Fleet - circa 1978 to 1983 were masters of it.

And of course Bruce Doull could always be guaranteed to spoil the ball to the team’s advantage as well, not just punch the ball away to a disputed ball situation.




:thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:58 am 
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Ken Hunter
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99prelim wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Well done to O'Brien for taking a bounce and running the ball. It's something we need more of. Credit to the Richmond player who put in a 100% chase and pressured him to kick the ball. A lot of our players could learn a lot from that. Too many of our chases are piss weak half arsed efforts.
My criticism of LOB would be more around his effort in the last 10 seconds. Acres inexcusably dropped the mark but when LOB won the spilled ball he braced for contact as usual instead of trying to get it out. They're the parts of Lachies game that will continually let him down. He fears contact. Someone like Matt Kennedy would have taken the knock and looked to get the ball out to a team mate.

All isn't lost. I thought we'd lose with so many underdone players so the 2 points are a bonus against a good side IMHO. I'd back us to win Thursday night if we make the right changes.


Any change that does not involve the omission of (ONE OF) Owies/Fisher/Martin and and the promotion of Dow sends the wrong message

OUT: Owies, Cowan,
IN: Dow, LOB, Pitto

Martin or Fisher sub


Fisher as a sub is a good shout, since he seems to produce in bursts. LOB is a fourth quarter specialist but he gives you that whether he starts or subs.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:02 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 2434
AGRO wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
AGRO wrote:
There are times when a deft tap to a player in the clear - rather than taking possession and taking the tackle is the best option.

Yep.
I've watched a few games this round and I really hoped in the off season we would've worked on tapping the ball to players when under pressure and running hard to block for them when players take possession or are about to.
The better teams do this all the time and is one of our major weaknesses IMO.
It's a whole team problem and if we want to become a running defending/attacking team, these are the two basics we need to master.



It’s football IQ I’m not sure it can be trained.

If anyone remembers our Mosquito Fleet - circa 1978 to 1983 were masters of it.

And of course Bruce Doull could always be guaranteed to spoil the ball to the team’s advantage as well, not just punch the ball away to a disputed ball situation.




:thumbsup:


I am a big fan of the tap when it works. But, like Saad's fresh air kick on Thu, it needs to be done sparingly, and at the right contests. There are times where it is better to take possession. And we don't want players to take the 'easy' tap option rather than wear contact. AND... for it to really work, we need players in the right positions, moving in the right direction to whom we would tap the ball. Our bigger problem at the moment is getting those crumbers and running players in the rights spots (Clue: attach a leg rope to Harry & Charlie at training...)
Also, my dad always tells me that Big Nick used to go up for the mark with no intention of marking it but with the aim of tapping it down to the waiting crumber... again, relies on the crumber being there!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:26 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:08 pm
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Thought this was pretty fair from SEN as we look to shape up against the cats.

In particular the forward half contributions (bottom 6 contributors)

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2023/03/20/ ... afl-teams/

They Key Takeaway: They need more from their bottom six players

Carlton must get more out of their bottom six players, particularly forward of the ball. Zac Fisher and Jack Silvagni kicked their first two goals of the game, but were barely sighted after that.

Matt Owies and Jesse Motlop combined for four tackles, Jack Martin was barely sighted across the evening and Ed Curnow’s ball use was poor.

Draftees Ollie Hollands and Lachie Cowan were fine, but will need time to find their feet.

If Carlton wants to be taken as seriously as the top sides, they need far more output from their small and half forwards, and their bottom six players generally.

The Positive: Defensively sound

Richmond had full control of large patches of the game on Thursday night, but with the exception of a patch in the third quarter, Carlton’s backline held up and kept them out.

Jacob Weitering and Lewis Young were arguably Carlton’s two best players, while Mitch McGovern will be better for the game under his belt.

The Negative: End of game scenarios… again

Goes without saying really. Carlton had the ball in their hands with two minutes left and a lead and found a way to not-win. Again.

Mitch McGovern’s outlet kick from full back to Jesse Motlop was the right kick, but the panic and chaos movement from there surely has to be harshly critiqued internally.

If Motlop simply goes back, kicks short to Lochie O’Brien who does the same, with Harry McKay leading up the wing, could the Blues have put the game beyond reach? We’ll never know.

What they need to tweak: Ruck setup

Carlton went with just Tom De Koning on Thursday and it didn’t quite work. Toby Nankervis outplayed the young blue and Jack Silvagni gave away too many free kicks as the secondary ruck.

Marc Pittonet should come in, allow the Blues to stretch Geelong’s backline with the extra tall inside 50 – and then you can simply sub one of the rucks off at three quarter time and inject some run.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2023/03/20/ ... afl-teams/


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:59 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 5537
Location: Bridge, Starship Enterprise
robertbb wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
AGRO wrote:
There are times when a deft tap to a player in the clear - rather than taking possession and taking the tackle is the best option.

Yep.
I've watched a few games this round and I really hoped in the off season we would've worked on tapping the ball to players when under pressure and running hard to block for them when players take possession or are about to.
The better teams do this all the time and is one of our major weaknesses IMO.

It's a whole team problem and if we want to become a running defending/attacking team, these are the two basics we need to master.


You already know this but there are three modes of play: you've got the ball, your opponent has the ball, the ball is in dispute.

Tapping is a skill that can only be done when ball is in dispute (clearly).

It's not as simple as "practice tapping the ball to advantage". Tapping is easy. But if your whole team isn't in on the play and is structured to support it right around the ground, it's easy to tap to dis-advantage and turn the ball over while your own teammates are out of position.

So what you appear to be saying is, you hoped we would play another "brand" of chaos/surge football a-la Bitchmond and C**wood.

Sadly we simply aren't fast enough on the ground. We're not set up for that kind of football. It's been a problem for years - too slow right around the ground. Who is our around-the-ball, super nimble, super quick player with exquisite skills? Who's our pickett, who's our bolton, who's our tyson stengle, top clubs have a few of these types on their list.... do we have one? Name one???

If we win the contested ball (ball is in dispute) as Voss keeps harping on about and if we maintain possession with effective patterns and delivery then the affects of all of this chaos, running off half back schtick can be nullified. If we can't win the footy, and if we can't keep possession and maintain connection - we'll get beat.

Two diametrically opposed basic principles of football I suppose. We'll soon see if the School of Voss or the School of Hardwick/McRae wins out...


robbie, the line originated with the late, great Allan Jeans when he coached the Hawks. And I have in the past pinched it as well. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:19 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Posts: 2450
billy_bongo wrote:
robertbb wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
AGRO wrote:
There are times when a deft tap to a player in the clear - rather than taking possession and taking the tackle is the best option.

Yep.
I've watched a few games this round and I really hoped in the off season we would've worked on tapping the ball to players when under pressure and running hard to block for them when players take possession or are about to.
The better teams do this all the time and is one of our major weaknesses IMO.

It's a whole team problem and if we want to become a running defending/attacking team, these are the two basics we need to master.


You already know this but there are three modes of play: you've got the ball, your opponent has the ball, the ball is in dispute.

Tapping is a skill that can only be done when ball is in dispute (clearly).

It's not as simple as "practice tapping the ball to advantage". Tapping is easy. But if your whole team isn't in on the play and is structured to support it right around the ground, it's easy to tap to dis-advantage and turn the ball over while your own teammates are out of position.

So what you appear to be saying is, you hoped we would play another "brand" of chaos/surge football a-la Bitchmond and C**wood.

Sadly we simply aren't fast enough on the ground. We're not set up for that kind of football. It's been a problem for years - too slow right around the ground. Who is our around-the-ball, super nimble, super quick player with exquisite skills? Who's our pickett, who's our bolton, who's our tyson stengle, top clubs have a few of these types on their list.... do we have one? Name one???

If we win the contested ball (ball is in dispute) as Voss keeps harping on about and if we maintain possession with effective patterns and delivery then the affects of all of this chaos, running off half back schtick can be nullified. If we can't win the footy, and if we can't keep possession and maintain connection - we'll get beat.

Two diametrically opposed basic principles of football I suppose. We'll soon see if the School of Voss or the School of Hardwick/McRae wins out...


I'm having a bit of a laugh imagining Vossy at training saying to his squad, "we're gonna have some tapping practice today. OK each pair has a ball and I want you to tap it to each other. Tapping only. Don't pick the ball up, just tap. We'll do picking the ball up next week. Right, do that for about an hour."

Anyhow, you're right, those posters with tapping envy are thinking of the chaos game. Under that game, a player with the ball in dispute is more likely to tap the ball into open space because he knows half a dozen of his teammates will turn up in that space. IN a similar situation, a Carlton player would be more likely to grab the ball and take the tackle so our big mids can set up and maintain control. Anyhow, you've already said that.

I don't agree we've been slow for years - lacking talent was the main issue and we've spent the years praying for a saviour in the form of a big-bodied mid. Now we've got a back yard full of saviours and the game plan we play is the game plan we have to play. So the choice of game plan is, and should be, directly related to the cattle you've got. We're trying to go Hardwick by adding more run and speed to our list and he's gone in the Voss direction by adding a couple of bulls.

It's great to have quality footballers in any position but I think our priority is some run and zip in our on-ball brigade more so then small forwards. In fact, and I know this is sacrilege, but if Sydney says we'll give you Chad Warner if you give us Cripps, I couldn't get the deal done quick enough.



:eek:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:23 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Posts: 5815
AGRO wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
AGRO wrote:
There are times when a deft tap to a player in the clear - rather than taking possession and taking the tackle is the best option.

Yep.
I've watched a few games this round and I really hoped in the off season we would've worked on tapping the ball to players when under pressure and running hard to block for them when players take possession or are about to.
The better teams do this all the time and is one of our major weaknesses IMO.
It's a whole team problem and if we want to become a running defending/attacking team, these are the two basics we need to master.



It’s football IQ I’m not sure it can be trained.

If anyone remembers our Mosquito Fleet - circa 1978 to 1983 were masters of it.

And of course Bruce Doull could always be guaranteed to spoil the ball to the team’s advantage as well, not just punch the ball away to a disputed ball situation.




:thumbsup:


I vividly remember the Mosquito Fleet Aggs . I was at the "79 Grand Final on a wet and miserable day when i witnessed the greatest TAP of all time . " Piggy " Harmes TAP"s the ball to " Bomber " Sheldon in the goal square for a gimme . So , tap to your hearts content for mine . A great weapon .
But it is so true what you say Aggs in that whole Mosquito Fleet were masters of the tap on . How many times did you see Alex Marcou continually tapping the ball in front of him ? it was his stock standard number one weapon . He saved his best taps for the adoring George Harris social club . When Alex got rollin' in front of that stand the roar was deafening .

Long live the TAP .

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:39 am 
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Wayne Johnston

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So how do we rate LOB’s tap in the last few minutes of the game?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:14 am 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:44 am
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sinbagger wrote:
So how do we rate LOB’s tap in the last few minutes of the game?


That was the tap that killed us.... :wink:

LOB was probably channelling Marcou.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:14 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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billy_bongo wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
So how do we rate LOB’s tap in the last few minutes of the game?


That was the tap that killed us.... :wink:

LOB was probably channelling Marcou.



Mark Maclure’s tap on to Alex Marcou (who went on to kick a goal) in the last moments of the 1982 Grand Final sealed the game.

:thumbsup:

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