Who should coach us next year? **Michael Voss**

bondiblue · **Posted:** Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:25 am

azzablue wrote:

Bolton is a fair comparison to hardwick and Clarko early years , because the club wanted to do a total rebuild , and when Teague took over he had a team to work with and he fked it and was exposed for lack of ability , it’s that plain simple

So please stop agreeing with Walsh he sits outside ikon park everyday waiting for tegaue to come back ..

Spot on.

Clarkson and Hardwick's first 4 years were rebuilding and the foundation of the game plan. Ditto bolton.

After 4 wins and the players obviously giving up, Bolton got sacked.

Clarkson and Hardwick were showing improvement.

Not fair to compare Teague taking the reigns as Head Coach in the 6th year of a rebuild, with Clarkson's or Hardwicks first 4 years.

Teague should be compared with Clarkson's 5th and 6th years...and that's not even fair either.

Just look at Teague's success with development of players and a game plan. That says it all.

tap in 79 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:58 am **Posts:** 2141

17th Premiership wrote:

tap in 79 wrote:

Footy Classified
Hutchy hatches an ingenious scheme to get Clarko to Carlton. It involves securing Cook, no committee, Clarko 23 onwards with Yze as a support coach in 2022.

Caroline Wilson responds with a snigger.
"I think that plan (giggles/laughs) is being carried out at the Gold Coast. I think Gillon McLachlin is working on Clarkson as we speak and has been for some time to get him to the Gold Coast."

Here we go again - the AFL will step in to give added assistance to their preferred teams- whether it be Brisbane, Gold Coast or GWS.
For Wilson, the Gold Coast is more important. "I think there would be a lot more money on offer" It's a "more important job" for Clarko too according to Wilson.

This gives you an insight into the modern day AFL - the needs of Carlton are peripheral. If Carlton ever starts winning again - it would be a team sticking it up a competition leadership that feels it is at the bottom of the chain.

To be honest, Caro is right - both in terms of what is probably going on and in terms of where AFL priority should be.
We are a big club and should be able to take care of ourselves. And our future does not depend on getting Clarkson, although I agree he would be the best choice. But not the only choice.

We should have learned by now that top draft picks don't get you there. Premiership coaches won't do it alone. And certainly, a hand out mentality won't cut it. We have to grow up and do this ourselves. Take responsibility. From the Board, through admin, footy department, coaches, players and boot studders!

It would suit Clarskon much more to take next year off. Take some time with his family, recharge, go o/s probably to a top world class sport team. Nurture his kid through VCE. And then come back refreshed to the nice warm Gold Coast environment where he and his wife can enjoy the lifestyle outside of footy.

Meanwhile, we need to focus on getting someone who is top notch and hungry. And keen right now.

I get all of your points, but I just don't approve of the Machiavellian scheming behind the scenes.
If Clarko wants to get to the Gold Coast, so be it. I just don't like the AFL dangling huge carrots in front of preferred coaches, thereby upsetting the "natural" market for players/coaches etc.

I see a similarity with the way Brisbane got Leigh Matthews.

Anyway, I get the rest of your argument. Carlton needs to grow up, play tough etc.

Did you know that West Coast "won" the wooden spoon in 2010- and then won the comp in 2018. That is a remarkable turnaround.

I hope with getting Cerra that Carlton doesn't sell the farm to get him, as let's be frank Carlton played a part in West Coast winning that 2018 flag with the Judd trade. As good as Judd was, he wasn't worth all those goodies we gave them.

Cerra is worth pick 6 and that's it. Not lot's of goodies on top.
or two players such as Fisher and another but NOT pick 6.

I just hope the guys in recruiting can get on top of things this time around.

kezza · **Joined:** Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm **Posts:** 15051

tap in 79 wrote:

Footy Classified
Hutchy hatches an ingenious scheme to get Clarko to Carlton. It involves securing Cook, no committee, Clarko 23 onwards with Yze as a support coach in 2022.

Caroline Wilson responds with a snigger.
"I think that plan (giggles/laughs) is being carried out at the Gold Coast. I think Gillon McLachlin is working on Clarkson as we speak and has been for some time to get him to the Gold Coast."

Here we go again - the AFL will step in to give added assistance to their preferred teams- whether it be Brisbane, Gold Coast or GWS.
For Wilson, the Gold Coast is more important. "I think there would be a lot more money on offer" It's a "more important job" for Clarko too according to Wilson.

This gives you an insight into the modern day AFL - the needs of Carlton are peripheral. If Carlton ever starts winning again - it would be a team sticking it up a competition leadership that feels it is at the bottom of the chain.

The AFL pick and chose who it helps.
The Gold Coast Suns have had 3 years of extra draft picks now.
Lets not forget they also helped Melbourne. They talked Roos into coaching them and paid his contract. Look at them now.
We are clearly not important, we will have to do this on our own.
Applying for a PP after a 2 win season got us access to a State League player, this is all.
It makes me sick.

bondiblue · **Posted:** Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:28 am

tap in 79 wrote:

Footy Classified
Hutchy hatches an ingenious scheme to get Clarko to Carlton. It involves securing Cook, no committee, Clarko 23 onwards with Yze as a support coach in 2022.

Caroline Wilson responds with a snigger.
"I think that plan (giggles/laughs) is being carried out at the Gold Coast. I think Gillon McLachlin is working on Clarkson as we speak and has been for some time to get him to the Gold Coast."

Here we go again - the AFL will step in to give added assistance to their preferred teams- whether it be Brisbane, Gold Coast or GWS.
For Wilson, the Gold Coast is more important. "I think there would be a lot more money on offer" It's a "more important job" for Clarko too according to Wilson.

This gives you an insight into the modern day AFL - the needs of Carlton are peripheral. If Carlton ever starts winning again - it would be a team sticking it up a competition leadership that feels it is at the bottom of the chain.

Corruption of the highest order.

bondiblue · **Posted:** Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:34 am

kezza wrote:

tap in 79 wrote:

Footy Classified
Hutchy hatches an ingenious scheme to get Clarko to Carlton. It involves securing Cook, no committee, Clarko 23 onwards with Yze as a support coach in 2022.

Caroline Wilson responds with a snigger.
"I think that plan (giggles/laughs) is being carried out at the Gold Coast. I think Gillon McLachlin is working on Clarkson as we speak and has been for some time to get him to the Gold Coast."

Here we go again - the AFL will step in to give added assistance to their preferred teams- whether it be Brisbane, Gold Coast or GWS.
For Wilson, the Gold Coast is more important. "I think there would be a lot more money on offer" It's a "more important job" for Clarko too according to Wilson.

This gives you an insight into the modern day AFL - the needs of Carlton are peripheral. If Carlton ever starts winning again - it would be a team sticking it up a competition leadership that feels it is at the bottom of the chain.

The AFL pick and chose who it helps.
The Gold Coast Suns have had 3 years of extra draft picks now.
Lets not forget they also helped Melbourne. They talked Roos into coaching them and paid his contract. Look at them now.
We are clearly not important, we will have to do this on our own.
Applying for a PP after a 2 win season got us access to a State League player, this is all.
It makes me sick.

Well said kezza

Makes me sick too.

I despise those corrupt bastards running the AFL Commission.

robertbb · **Joined:** Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:06 pm **Posts:** 9354

There's only one way to beat f'sticks like them.

Scrap. Fight. Win.

Drewgirl · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:57 pm **Posts:** 4775

Yep on top of the AFL. No one cares enough about us to help. Roos helped Melbourne. Barassi loves Melbourne.

Not one person is putting their hand up to say I wanna roll my sleeve up and help Carlton get to the top again.

We have to beg and steal to get help.

AFL have washed their hands off us. The media hate us.

How the hell are we going to get out of this ?

I dont know but am trying to stay positive.

bondiblue · **Posted:** Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:19 pm

Drewgirl wrote:

Yep on top of the AFL. No one cares enough about us to help. Roos helped Melbourne. Barassi loves Melbourne.

Not one person is putting their hand up to say I wanna roll my sleeve up and help Carlton get to the top again.

We have to beg and steal to get help.

AFL have washed their hands off us. The media hate us.

How the hell are we going to get out of this ?

I dont know but am trying to stay positive.

On the surface it may seem the way you describe Drewgirl.

I think some in the media hate us for the defeats we inflicted on their boyhood dreams:
Robbo Effedopes* 1999, 2011 elimination final
Whaetely Cats 1995
Ralph Tigers 2013
and so on....

Then there's media business looking for carlton stories because they sell papers and click bait.

We haven't had many good news stories since Setanta and his little helpers and Judd led midfield group starting 3 zip in 2013. There was good reports early days of Bolton's reign when we won a few games on the trot in his first or second year, and the Teague Train in 2019 after that big win against lions.

Like posters keep saying...W's fix up everything.

I believe Sayers wants to make a difference, and I think potential experienced coaches pulling out of coaches race will force our hand to find best young coach, after a proper process. Sayers has rolled up his sleeves. he's made the hard decision re coach. he's called out the Leakers.

Diesel is back!

Lets see what story a Kingsley type signing creates....or a surprise about face Trade in and FA which would make us look like a destination club.

We ARE getting out of a messy spot.

Start with change of Game Plan.
Another preseason under the belt of our young squad.
First round draftees who are still on the periphery, only need 3-4 to break out this year: Dow, SPS, OBrien, Kennedy, Setterfield, Cuningham,Stocker, Kemp, Philp, Marchbank.....most of them are going to make the grade.
Other young players making their mark: Fisher deKoning
Charlie, Doc, Williams, Gov, Pitto, Martin starting the season fit instead of underdone.

Unfortunately, we ended the season with a bad loss and with headlines for the wrong reasons: self inflicted, and have to be patient and wait till round 1.

Go Blues

CFC8795 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:28 pm

Thanks Bondiblue! I always appreciate your optimism :thumbsup:

Cazzesman · **Posted:** Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:39 pm

Michael Lombardi. If you don't know who he is then see below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_L ... n_football)

Lombardi has written one book, Gridiron Genius: A Master Class in Winning Championships and Building Dynasties in the NFL

Now listen to this from this morning.

https://player.fm/series/sen-breakfast/ ... bardi-7921

Absolutely must listen radio.

Go to 4.40 for talk about Carlton Coaching Selection Process. Riveting stuff.

Regards Cazzesman

Beijing Blue · **Joined:** Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:02 pm **Posts:** 647

Cazzesman wrote:

Michael Lombardi. If you don't know who he is then see below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_L ... n_football)

Lombardi has written one book, Gridiron Genius: A Master Class in Winning Championships and Building Dynasties in the NFL

Now listen to this from this morning.

https://player.fm/series/sen-breakfast/ ... bardi-7921

Absolutely must listen radio.

Go to 4.40 for talk about Carlton Coaching Selection Process. Riveting stuff.

Regards Cazzesman

That interview certainly woke me up this morning. Succinct and no-nonsense. Thanks for posting.

camel · **Posted:** Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:53 pm

CK95 wrote:

BigBlueWave wrote:

If Geelong lose on the weekend, I would like Carlton do everything to get Chris Scott to Carlton.

If that happens I can see camel pushing for TC to sponsor the coach, not a player :grin:

I always thought I was one of the few who liked him?! So I wouldn't want to sponsor him and place the TC curse on him. :lol:

Although, my like of him has waned a bit over the years, but I certainly don't hate him like many seem to.

thryleon · **Joined:** Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:14 pm **Posts:** 362

bondiblue wrote:

thryleon wrote:

17th Premiership wrote:

thryleon wrote:

Cazzesman wrote:

And the top 7 worst performed (except Essendon****** in 2021 2nd half) are all rubbish.

Pretty good indicator that 5gl runs are a no win situation that take a team nowhere.

Regards Cazzesman

Actually it shows nothing meaningful in terms of how teams perform on any given week, nor a coaches ability, nor their tactics, hence why over 50 games, all teams are experiencing it frequently enough for it to have happened at minimum 20% of the time, and at maximum 50% of the time.

If you want to see something truly meaningful, have a look at the ladder in terms of who has had the most stability in the coaches chair and how they have performed over time.

That's a meaningful indicator.

Ill give you a clue. Less coaches = more time near the pointy end of the ladder, and more finals appearances (what a shock) oh and just to really show you about your indicator or performance and how meaningful it is, have a look at this. Starting with the Mick Malthouse appointment of 2013:

26 - STK - 3 - Watters, Richardson, Ratten - 2019 to present
25 - GCS - 3 - Mckenna, Eade, Dew (4 if you count Solomon as interim) 2018 to present
24 - ESS - 4 - Hird, Thompson, Woosha, Rutten (6 if you count Egan and Goodwin as interim 2021 to present
23 - CARL - 3 - Malthouse, Bolton, Teague (4 counting Barker as interim) 2019 to present
22 - ADEL - 4 - Sanderson, Walsh, Pyke, Nicks (5 counting Camporeale) 2020 to present
21 - FREM - 2 - Lyon, Longmuir (3 if you include Hale as interim) 2020 to present
19 - HAW - 1 - Clarkson (2 if you include Bolton as an interim) 2005 to present
16 - COLL - 1 - Buckley (2 if you include Harvey as interim) (2012 to present)
16 - NTH - 3 - Brad Scott - Rhys Shaw - David Noble - 2021 to present. (this is what an outlier looks like, but Brad Scott was largely the culture setter there for the previous period).
15 - SYD - 1 - Longmire - 2011 to present
14 - WCE - 2 - Woosha, Simpson 2014 to present(3 if you count Graham as an interim)
14 - RICH - 1 - Hardwick - 2010 to present
13 - GWS - 2 - Sheedy, Cameron 2014 to present
11 - BRIS - 3 - Voss, Leppitsch, Fagan 2016 to present(4 if you count Harvey as interim)
11 - MELB - 3 - Neeld, Roos, Goodwin 2017 to present (4 if you count Craig as interim)
11 - PORT - 1 - Hinkley - 2013 to present
9 - WBD - 2 - Mccartney, Beveridge 2017 to present
7 - GEEL - 1 - Chris Scott - 2010 to present

What this shows is as follows:

Coaches that coach longer, have less 5+ goal run ons on average but even the best of the lot hasnt ironed them out completely (Clarkson).

Teams that havent had a revolving door are more likely to have played finals footy in the last couple of years, and gone deeper into the finals series.

There are outliers that occur, where a team like North Melbourne, finished last, and second last in the last 2 seasons, and still dont concede 5+ goal run ons (which point to this indicator losing any real meaning).

Teams that have had 2 or fewer coaches in since 2013 have finished top 4 or played in a grand final/won one which is even more of a reason to back a coach in over a longer period of time if you want to achieve some real results.

THIS is how these sorts of indicators should be interpreted. Not the way you guys are applying that argument. We could still lose the exact same amount of games, moving where and when we scored, by the exact same scoreline, and these 5+ run ons vanish and are a misnomer.

I suspect it is the other way around re no. of coaches: those teams who perform well are less likely to turnover their coaches
:wink:

I also really liked Bondi's analysis. Great work Bondi...

Expand it out further for another 10 years.

List the premiership victories, vs the number of coaches.

As far as the burner account, I am actually neither here nor there on coaching change. If the review shows Teague goes, he goes. The 5 goals run on is and will be a meaningless statistic that says more about where a team finished than where they didnt.

Extrapolating meaning from patterns if fraught with danger, for a variety of reasons but it smells of bias to me.

As for Bondi's analysis, are we really going to draw on Bolton laid the groundwork for Teagues success by achieving a win rate of 4 in 40 matches?

The increasing losing margins later... When rucking JSOS and De Koning in a tandem isnt worth the comparison test.

Holy Cow Thryleon...talk about taking my points out of context to create a whatever you're trying to do.

Its in plain English and rather long post to explain the reasoning, so it doesn't get hijacked like you just did.

I'm putting up the concept that Bolton's ultra defense first development mantra was the basis of Teague's defensive success early on, but as that instilled defensive mindset (Bolton's doing) diluted so did any semblance of a defensive thought in Teague's game plan.

"Teague's Gift" was not conceived after 23 5 goal runs against. It was penned after a dozen...it just continued and got worse. You can't just avoid that fact...I know you can, but its ignorant to do so.

Ultra defense first.... we got thrashed repeatedly with Bolton coaching. The team couldn't believe they could win under him, and like Teague he too had a fair chunk of talent missing for a longish period of time.

Both had the same structural issue IMHO is that you can't achieve much with 25% list changeover year upon year.

Be it offensive or defensive my point remains cutting hard and long into the list leads to poorer performances.

The 5 goal run ons are crap, and like I said the games can have the same result and the same feel to them even if they weren't happening.

Before this list that we are talking was posted no one knew that Essendon* and st. Kilda suffered from them as much if not more so that we have since Teague took over and this is remarkable when you consider the saints finished 6th last year. Likewise North Melbourne are about 8 games less and finished bottom and second bottom.

My over arching point remains, the run ons are am emotive thing fans are latching onto. Proper fools that have been played. You can blame a lack of system, you can blame a lack of structure, you can even blame covid, but the true answer is that politics has raised its head and we are likely better off having a new ceo with his coach and football dep as recent rather than let what happened to Bolton when we let Trigg go play out again.

Thats more likely the reason.

Navy Blue Horse · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:39 pm **Posts:** 15848

Cazzesman wrote:

Michael Lombardi. If you don't know who he is then see below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_L ... n_football)

Lombardi has written one book, Gridiron Genius: A Master Class in Winning Championships and Building Dynasties in the NFL

Now listen to this from this morning.

https://player.fm/series/sen-breakfast/ ... bardi-7921

Absolutely must listen radio.

Go to 4.40 for talk about Carlton Coaching Selection Process. Riveting stuff.

Regards Cazzesman

"Players gravitate towards knowledge"

That's not Teague.

Beijing Blue · **Joined:** Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:02 pm **Posts:** 647

"We are a culture based organisation". What would be the culture around our current football department these past two years?

Hornet · **Joined:** Sat May 21, 2005 5:15 pm **Posts:** 7428

Cazzesman wrote:

Michael Lombardi. If you don't know who he is then see below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_L ... n_football)

Lombardi has written one book, Gridiron Genius: A Master Class in Winning Championships and Building Dynasties in the NFL

Now listen to this from this morning.

https://player.fm/series/sen-breakfast/ ... bardi-7921

Absolutely must listen radio.

Go to 4.40 for talk about Carlton Coaching Selection Process. Riveting stuff.

Regards Cazzesman

"One thing that gets most coaches is that they wanna make everybody happy... when everybody is happy, nobody is winning" :clap:

Drewgirl · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:57 pm **Posts:** 4775

bondiblue wrote:

Drewgirl wrote:

Yep on top of the AFL. No one cares enough about us to help. Roos helped Melbourne. Barassi loves Melbourne.

Not one person is putting their hand up to say I wanna roll my sleeve up and help Carlton get to the top again.

We have to beg and steal to get help.

AFL have washed their hands off us. The media hate us.

How the hell are we going to get out of this ?

I dont know but am trying to stay positive.

On the surface it may seem the way you describe Drewgirl.

I think some in the media hate us for the defeats we inflicted on their boyhood dreams:
Robbo Effedopes* 1999, 2011 elimination final
Whaetely Cats 1995
Ralph Tigers 2013
and so on....

Then there's media business looking for carlton stories because they sell papers and click bait.

We haven't had many good news stories since Setanta and his little helpers and Judd led midfield group starting 3 zip in 2013. There was good reports early days of Bolton's reign when we won a few games on the trot in his first or second year, and the Teague Train in 2019 after that big win against lions.

Like posters keep saying...W's fix up everything.

I believe Sayers wants to make a difference, and I think potential experienced coaches pulling out of coaches race will force our hand to find best young coach, after a proper process. Sayers has rolled up his sleeves. he's made the hard decision re coach. he's called out the Leakers.

Diesel is back!

Lets see what story a Kingsley type signing creates....or a surprise about face Trade in and FA which would make us look like a destination club.

We ARE getting out of a messy spot.

Start with change of Game Plan.
Another preseason under the belt of our young squad.
First round draftees who are still on the periphery, only need 3-4 to break out this year: Dow, SPS, OBrien, Kennedy, Setterfield, Cuningham,Stocker, Kemp, Philp, Marchbank.....most of them are going to make the grade.
Other young players making their mark: Fisher deKoning
Charlie, Doc, Williams, Gov, Pitto, Martin starting the season fit instead of underdone.

Unfortunately, we ended the season with a bad loss and with headlines for the wrong reasons: self inflicted, and have to be patient and wait till round 1.

Go Blues

Great Great Post !!

CK95 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:51 pm

camel wrote:

I always thought I was one of the few who liked him?! So I wouldn't want to sponsor him and place the TC curse on him. :lol:

haha, I hadn't thought of that :lol:

And yeah I don't mind him. Admire his intellect because he's obviously a pretty smart guy who always has something interesting to say.

Reckon he loves the sound of his own voice a bit though.

rhino27 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:58 pm **Posts:** 4299

CK95 wrote:

camel wrote:

I always thought I was one of the few who liked him?! So I wouldn't want to sponsor him and place the TC curse on him. :lol:

haha, I hadn't thought of that :lol:

And yeah I don't mind him. Admire his intellect because he's obviously a pretty smart guy who always has something interesting to say.

Reckon he loves the sound of his own voice a bit though.

Not saying he wouldn't be good, but be interesting to see how he goes with an almost developed and under performing list. Has never had to deal with it.
Inherited a premiership list and through some good list management, a bit of luck and ability to keep topping up via free agency and trading early draft picks (the Hendo pick), have stayed up there. Never bottomed out. They are now on the edge of the cliff and will likely plummet whether that be in 2022 or 2023.
Bottom line, has only coached a top 5 or 6 list. Has never had to coach a 7th to 12th list like his brother and get them into a top 4 position.
Would certainly be a whole new challenge for him if he came across.

GWS · **Posted:** Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:04 pm

I loved what Lombardi said about explaining to the players the way they were going to play and if they played that way then most of the time they’d win.

I remember Parko once talking about markers which if the team met them they would inevitably win. Can’t remember what the numbers were and they’d be different these days but it was the stats without the ball like tackles and shepherds rather than disposals or marks that he was referring to and if the team hit certain levels they almost never lost.

Who should coach us next year? Michael Voss

Who is online