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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:23 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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budzy wrote:
The Tyrant wrote:
There are more instances of it..... but are footballers like mortal combat characters, where every little contact dimishes their power? or are you more afraid he's more likely to get cleaned up in one huge hit if in the midfield?

I'm sure you'd agree that the constant physical demands of playing midfield is far greater than that of playing forward pocket...yes?


well yes, in terms of physical fitness maybe... thats something I've already pointed out could be addressed in bursts or training.

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The Tyrant wrote:
are you implying that Eddie lacks a variety of skills, or is a slow learner?

At 19 years of age of course he lacks the variety of skills other more experienced and proven midfielders have. Would you agree?


he seems pretty talented, by the sounds of it... has more skills than anyone at the club

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:51 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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The Tyrant wrote:
budzy wrote:
The Tyrant wrote:
There are more instances of it..... but are footballers like mortal combat characters, where every little contact dimishes their power? or are you more afraid he's more likely to get cleaned up in one huge hit if in the midfield?

I'm sure you'd agree that the constant physical demands of playing midfield is far greater than that of playing forward pocket...yes?


well yes, in terms of physical fitness maybe... thats something I've already pointed out could be addressed in bursts or training.

And in terms of the constant physical battering midfielders cop.
I'd also suggest that a long consistant run in the midfield would aid in gaining more awareness in close and assist in learning better evasive skills which would ease the "physical pressure" of opponents. :wink:

The Tyrant wrote:
Quote:
The Tyrant wrote:
are you implying that Eddie lacks a variety of skills, or is a slow learner?

At 19 years of age of course he lacks the variety of skills other more experienced and proven midfielders have. Would you agree?


he seems pretty talented, by the sounds of it... has more skills than anyone at the club

I'm sure BlueWorld would disagree with that. 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:01 pm 
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formerly Army the Wonderkid
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budzy wrote:
Athorn,
Is it not YOUR opinion that Eddie predominantly will & should play the small forward role?


My opinion is that Eddie is the best forward pocket we have. I also agree that he is highly skilled and putting him in the seconds to learn something else is just a waste of skill on a relatively unskilled list.

I wanted to try to work with your line but your just tweaking it to gain support, so I'll try - Eddie WILL predominantly play the small forward role as he is the best on our list at it. Eddie WILL be given stints on ball over his career to break up midfields, improve skill from the midfield and break up tight defences on him over his career.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:03 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Athorn the Wonderkid wrote:
budzy wrote:
Athorn,
Is it not YOUR opinion that Eddie predominantly will & should play the small forward role?


My opinion is that Eddie is the best forward pocket we have. I also agree that he is highly skilled and putting him in the seconds to learn something else is just a waste of skill on a relatively unskilled list.

I wanted to try to work with your line but your just tweaking it to gain support, so I'll try - Eddie WILL predominantly play the small forward role as he is the best on our list at it. Eddie WILL be given stints on ball over his career to break up midfields, improve skill from the midfield and break up tight defences on him over his career.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:33 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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I must confess I haven't read every single post in this thread; but I saw Eddie being compared with a player like Brett Ratten; or at least as a midfielder similar to Ratts.

Ratts came up thru all the junior ranks ; U19's and reserves, and couldn't displace The Dog and Diesel in the middle; so played in the back pocket.

When he did move into the midfield in '95, he amassed 570 possies for the year and won our B&F in a Premiership year.

The point I'm trying to make is Ratts started at 19, sure; but he was 184cm and 90kg compared to Eddie at 173cm and 75kg....big difference in size.....and different footballers.

I compare Eddie to Matera at 171cm and 76kg....goalsneaks....not midfielders.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:20 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Warby wrote:
I must confess I haven't read every single post in this thread; but I saw Eddie being compared with a player like Brett Ratten; or at least as a midfielder similar to Ratts.

Ratts came up thru all the junior ranks ; U19's and reserves, and couldn't displace The Dog and Diesel in the middle; so played in the back pocket.

When he did move into the midfield in '95, he amassed 570 possies for the year and won our B&F in a Premiership year.

The point I'm trying to make is Ratts started at 19, sure; but he was 184cm and 90kg compared to Eddie at 173cm and 75kg....big difference in size.....and different footballers.

I compare Eddie to Matera at 171cm and 76kg....goalsneaks....not midfielders.


You're right Warby he is tiny. Very few guys that small cut it in the middle. Peter Bell and Crawford are a couple of exceptions but they are champion players and have never had any trouble finding the footy.
Why the push to use Betts as a midfielder? Great crumbing forwards are much harder to find.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:28 pm 
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He needs GAME TIME....................... Full stop, end of argument. His forward line pressure is fantastic, just needs fitness.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:55 pm 
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Garry Crane

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Warby wrote:
The point I'm trying to make is Ratts started at 19, sure; but he was 184cm and 90kg compared to Eddie at 173cm and 75kg....big difference in size.....and different footballers.

I compare Eddie to Matera at 171cm and 76kg....goalsneaks....not midfielders.

I compare him to Brent Harvey, who is now 172cm and 75kg in his prime at the age of 27. You don't have to be a 90kg midfielder to have an impact. I'm sure Simmo is happy about that too!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:31 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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SOS wrote:
Warby wrote:
The point I'm trying to make is Ratts started at 19, sure; but he was 184cm and 90kg compared to Eddie at 173cm and 75kg....big difference in size.....and different footballers.

I compare Eddie to Matera at 171cm and 76kg....goalsneaks....not midfielders.

I compare him to Brent Harvey, who is now 172cm and 75kg in his prime at the age of 27. You don't have to be a 90kg midfielder to have an impact. I'm sure Simmo is happy about that too!


Yeah...Eddie could be our version of Libba...with EXPLOSIVE PACE & SKILL!! ...but minus the squirrell gripping/gouging/scratching/biting......

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:34 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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budzy wrote:
SOS wrote:
Warby wrote:
The point I'm trying to make is Ratts started at 19, sure; but he was 184cm and 90kg compared to Eddie at 173cm and 75kg....big difference in size.....and different footballers.

I compare Eddie to Matera at 171cm and 76kg....goalsneaks....not midfielders.

I compare him to Brent Harvey, who is now 172cm and 75kg in his prime at the age of 27. You don't have to be a 90kg midfielder to have an impact. I'm sure Simmo is happy about that too!


Yeah...Eddie could be our version of Libba...with EXPLOSIVE PACE & SKILL!! ...but minus the squirrell gripping/gouging/scratching/biting......


But specifically, Harvey was a forward pocket specialist who started rotating through the middle until he became a fulltime mid. Ala what Betts should do, not play in the reserves

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:46 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Even when Harvey started up forward he got more than 4 kicks a game. The more I think of it he will never be a midfielder.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:19 pm 
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Garry Crane

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Let's compare their first seasons then.

Eddie was born in November and Harvey was born in May. Harvey was a couple of months short of 18 at the start of his first year whereas Eddie was 18 years and 4 months at the start of his this year's season.

In his first year, Eddie played 19 games. He kicked bags of 3 on 4 occasions. He ended up with 19 goals. He also applied 42 tackles, with a game-high of 6. His lowest possession tally in a game was 0 and his best was 11. He had 122 possessions at an average of 6.42 per game. As we know, he spent a lot of time on the bench.

In his first year, Harvey averaged 1 possession per game. In fact, he only had 1 possession - in his one game in the last H&A game of 1996. Admittedly, that was a premiership year for them, so breaking into the team would have been quite difficult. But on the other hand, having Carey and Longmire to crumb to should have been good for a forward pocket.

In his second year, Harvey didn't break into the side until Round 5. He then played 17 games including 2 finals. He had 159 possessions, with a high of 20 possessions and a low of 3. His average was 9.35 possessions a game, which sinks to 8.9 ppg if you include the one in the previous year. He kicked only 10 goals, with only one bag of 3. He had 9 tackles.

I think it is really hard to say that Eddie's debut season fell so far below Harvey's that you can write off his chances of making it in the midfield. Harvey had a year in the 2nds to mature. Disregarding his debut game, he was 7 months older than Eddie when they broke into the seniors. The average possessions per game are reasonably comparable despite this, and the difference may have been due to Harvey having more time in the middle.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:18 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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SOS wrote:
Let's compare their first seasons then.

Eddie was born in November and Harvey was born in May. Harvey was a couple of months short of 18 at the start of his first year whereas Eddie was 18 years and 4 months at the start of his this year's season.

In his first year, Eddie played 19 games. He kicked bags of 3 on 4 occasions. He ended up with 19 goals. He also applied 42 tackles, with a game-high of 6. His lowest possession tally in a game was 0 and his best was 11. He had 122 possessions at an average of 6.42 per game. As we know, he spent a lot of time on the bench.

In his first year, Harvey averaged 1 possession per game. In fact, he only had 1 possession - in his one game in the last H&A game of 1996. Admittedly, that was a premiership year for them, so breaking into the team would have been quite difficult. But on the other hand, having Carey and Longmire to crumb to should have been good for a forward pocket.

In his second year, Harvey didn't break into the side until Round 5. He then played 17 games including 2 finals. He had 159 possessions, with a high of 20 possessions and a low of 3. His average was 9.35 possessions a game, which sinks to 8.9 ppg if you include the one in the previous year. He kicked only 10 goals, with only one bag of 3. He had 9 tackles.

I think it is really hard to say that Eddie's debut season fell so far below Harvey's that you can write off his chances of making it in the midfield. Harvey had a year in the 2nds to mature. Disregarding his debut game, he was 7 months older than Eddie when they broke into the seniors. The average possessions per game are reasonably comparable despite this, and the difference may have been due to Harvey having more time in the middle.


Well as you said he didn't get a go in his first couple of years due to being in a very strong side. He still managed to get a high of 20 disposals that shows he is capable of getting a lot of ball. Betts isn't the type of player to get those numbers IMO. Thats not a dig at him, I just think he'll make a great forward flanker. There have been some fantastic players over the years that have played in this position.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:26 pm 
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Warby wrote:
When he did move into the midfield in '95, he amassed 570 possies for the year and won our B&F in a Premiership year.



It also took an "outsider" in Ken Judge who was our Assistant Coach in 1995 to recognise Ratten's talent and push for his inclusion in our mid-field rotation.

One of the reasons why its important to bring in Assistant Coaches from outside the club on a regular basis (eg. Terry Daniher and Gary Dempsey) it brings a fresh perspective and also provides and opportunity to those players on the list who may have been pidgeon holed by the current coaching staff.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:55 pm 
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AGRO wrote:
Warby wrote:
When he did move into the midfield in '95, he amassed 570 possies for the year and won our B&F in a Premiership year.



It also took an "outsider" in Ken Judge who was our Assistant Coach in 1995 to recognise Ratten's talent and push for his inclusion in our mid-field rotation.

One of the reasons why its important to bring in Assistant Coaches from outside the club on a regular basis (eg. Terry Daniher and Gary Dempsey) it brings a fresh perspective and also provides and opportunity to those players on the list who may have been pidgeon holed by the current coaching staff.


I thought we should have delisted him after the prior season. :oops:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:25 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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TheGame wrote:
SOS wrote:
Let's compare their first seasons then.

Eddie was born in November and Harvey was born in May. Harvey was a couple of months short of 18 at the start of his first year whereas Eddie was 18 years and 4 months at the start of his this year's season.

In his first year, Eddie played 19 games. He kicked bags of 3 on 4 occasions. He ended up with 19 goals. He also applied 42 tackles, with a game-high of 6. His lowest possession tally in a game was 0 and his best was 11. He had 122 possessions at an average of 6.42 per game. As we know, he spent a lot of time on the bench.

In his first year, Harvey averaged 1 possession per game. In fact, he only had 1 possession - in his one game in the last H&A game of 1996. Admittedly, that was a premiership year for them, so breaking into the team would have been quite difficult. But on the other hand, having Carey and Longmire to crumb to should have been good for a forward pocket.

In his second year, Harvey didn't break into the side until Round 5. He then played 17 games including 2 finals. He had 159 possessions, with a high of 20 possessions and a low of 3. His average was 9.35 possessions a game, which sinks to 8.9 ppg if you include the one in the previous year. He kicked only 10 goals, with only one bag of 3. He had 9 tackles.

I think it is really hard to say that Eddie's debut season fell so far below Harvey's that you can write off his chances of making it in the midfield. Harvey had a year in the 2nds to mature. Disregarding his debut game, he was 7 months older than Eddie when they broke into the seniors. The average possessions per game are reasonably comparable despite this, and the difference may have been due to Harvey having more time in the middle.


Well as you said he didn't get a go in his first couple of years due to being in a very strong side. He still managed to get a high of 20 disposals that shows he is capable of getting a lot of ball. Betts isn't the type of player to get those numbers IMO. Thats not a dig at him, I just think he'll make a great forward flanker. There have been some fantastic players over the years that have played in this position.


Good post SOS.

TheGame, why do you think Betts wont be capable of ammassing 20+ possies p/game as a midfielder in the future?
Betts will be a good small forward yes, but it'd be better for Carlton if he turned into a highly skilled & paced midfielder will great evasiveness and defencive pressure don't you think?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:06 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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1 page article on Betts in todays herald sun on page 65...

Quote "Carlton hopes a fitter Eddie to showcase his talents in the midfield"


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:12 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Todays Sunday Sun:

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 42,00.html

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:41 pm 
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Garry Crane

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Interesting that Medhurst is looking at time in the midfield this year:
Expanded role for Medhurst
Somewhat different players admittedly - Medhurst is more of a Matera-type forward pocket than a Milne-type (reliant on his marking rather than swooping on the crumbs).


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:08 pm 
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I am happy for Eddie to play a permanent role in the forward pocket, or even the half forward flank - I think he could be a genuine 2 to 4 goal a game goalsneak from there.

However there would be nothing wrong with swinging him into the midfield say in the final quarter (when most of the mid-fielders are a bit tired) to provide some inspiration and spark with his pace and elusiveness if he has been "resting" as it were for most of the game in the forward pocket.

But I would want to see him do it in the firsts. Geez after all he played 19 games last season without a pre-season, lets give the kid a chance in 2006 in the firsts with a full pre-season under his belt. :wink:

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