Peaple are expecting a lot from this boy and I genuinely feel sorry for him because of it, he must be feeling the pressure.

Tyrant says there is no evidence to suggest young players having their confidence smashed... well, it's very difficult to prove a negative but I dare say it happens. And if 90% of the game is played above the shoulders then we must all agree it is an issue worthy of consideration.

I'm all for youth policy, and you may call me "old school", but I call it "tried and tested". Places have to be EARNED. Young blokes coming in can be hailed the freeking mesiah for all I give a sh*t, they still must earn the right to don the navy blue.

Round 1 he plays reserves, he does good, he's a chance for the 1s, he does bad he tries again. He may well end up playing most games, but again, he must earn that right.

Good thing sometimes take time. I know you don't wanna hear it again, but... patience.

I also think we have an issue of 'why oh why does Pagan continue to play the never will bes' ahead of a perfectly talented young kid that could be developing right now and getting some needed exposure.

I don't know how this shit works...you know, all the psychology and player management involved...so I just hope our club knows best.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

Marc was on Ch.10 news tonight....he said he was gonna play in our first NAB game....not short of confidence.

The reporter said he "was continuing to train the place down".

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

we have examples of confidence 'shot'.

Baker-Finch

Mckernan


a bloke called gary whenever he played me at pool.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

How old were they at the time? 17? Never played a game before?



That would indicate that by my standards, he misses out on a spot, and rightfully so. Just because they've put him in the leadership group doesn't make it a good decision.

Incidentally, here's the team I'd pick:

B Jason SADDINGTON Luke LIVINGSTON Jordan RUSSELL
HB Matthew LAPPIN Bret THORNTON Kade SIMPSON
C Heath SCOTLAND Adam BENTICK Andrew WALKER
HF Ryan HOULIHAN Lance WHITNALL Eddie BETTS
F Brad FISHER Brendan FEVOLA Jarrad WAITE

FOLL Barnaby FRENCH Andrew CARRAZZO Nick STEVENS

INTER Dylan McLAREN Anthony KOUTOUFIDES ©
Marc MURPHY Setanta O'hAILPIN

So thats Russell, Simpson, Bentick, Walker, Betts, O'hAilpin, Carrazzo, Murphy and Fisher in the side who are really inexperienced (yes, I realise I've dropped Teague).

The players to miss out are:

David TEAGUE, Simon WIGGINS, Trent SPORN, Jordan BANNISTER, Cory McGRATH, Callum CHAMBERS, Justin DAVIES, Troy LONGMUIR, Ian PRENDERGAST.

Of that lot, the only ones who are half decent are Teague and McGrath, and MAYBE Davies, Wiggo or Sporn if we're still hoping... and the first guy I'd drop from my squad would be Houlihan, whom we should have traded anyway.

All the young guys I've picked have either shown a fair bit, or have a lot of potential. They're also great triers.

Our "discards" are mostly no good. Chambers and Longmuir are horrible players we should never have touched. The fact they're on the list is hardly encouragement to put-off the youth policy.



Mate, with that list above, they're not steadying anything. They're not up to AFL standard. They're the reason we're so pathetic. If they have to be brought in, the ship may as well take in its sail and set fire to itself. They're only going to make the losses worse.

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Love Cricket? Love me

Mate, you've got to pick 22 players! how many on our list have earned the right to be AFL footballers? You may as well fill up spots 15-22 in the side on someone who might be good in the future!!



that SOOOOOOOOO isn't the point of my post. Perhaps a careful re-read might be in order. All Im expecting of Marc is to TRY. To RUN and PUT-IN.

I also expect the match committee to PICK HIM, and COACH HIM CORRECTLY. But as far as Marc is concerned, as long as he's in the 22, getting some minutes here and there and running hard, thats ok by me!!

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Love Cricket? Love me

I agree with you to a degree Tyrant.

Would like to see MM play senior footy, but I reckon the odd full game for the blueants doesn't go astray either.

Should be a mix of the two I reckon - off the bench in the ones, and full games in the twos.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Yep. MM looked pretty damn good at training today...but I will be happy if he gets 4 or 5 games as a taster in the seniors.

He's only a baby (in footy terms), no need to throw him to the wolves for a full 22 games.

Barring injury he'll play all pre-season games. It'll then depend on form like any other player...That's using Pagan's track record anyway...

Agree entirely Tyrant for both Russell amd Murphy, and your comment on Walker. with all those tall guys we drafted I reckon they need to be played anyway for team balance.

If any play a reserves game and a Longmuir plays for Carlton I will be as angry as my Dad when he received the Darryl Somers CD for Christmas.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

tyrant I think you need to consider the fact that even the best players have started playing footy in the magoos(even champs like Hird and co) Dont expect too much in 2006 from this guy.Anything over 10 games is a bonus.

Betts played 19 games this year...and did pretty well for the most part. And he didn't even make the National Draft.

Not that that means a great deal, but if if he fits in, Murphy could play the whole season.

Not sure I can be arsed reading this whole thread but has anyone mentioned Jarrad Waite yet? He was held back and it did the boy wonders. Now I know he was a bigger guy, and bigger guyst ake longer to come on, but there is alot to be said for not letting schoolboys go up against fully grown men.

Unless you have a body like Cooney, it may be better in the long run to give him a taste next year only, I'd rather he played only a few games next year if it meant he was more ready and had a longer career.

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Forgotten, but not gone

Tyrant i know that it is fun to say stuff for effect, and i agree with what you are saying in regards to giving the kids a go, but i don't see why Chambers and Longmuir are THE problem. We have recruited worse than those two.

Longmuir was recruited with the club knowing that he would need an operation and that 2005 was a write off...surely he should only be judged on his 2006. Your arguement needs to be a bit more comprehensive than the he is s*** (interprted as i don't like him). Longmuir can be inconsistant but for a squad that is lacking in the skill department, he brings something we don't have an abundance of.

Chambers showed a bit until he was injured. Even so, he trains the house down and is a great role model for the young kids that you are insisting that we look after. Well, setting an example on the training track is a pretty important part of that. Chambers has one thing that we lack...pace - the man can run the lines...oh, and he can hit a target over 40+ metres, as well as kick a long goal. If fit he could be an important part of the team for the next few years and has a few attributes that won't need to be reprogrammed to fit into the Pagan gameplan. I agree his 2005 was disappointing but he has a history of being able to find the ball even from limited opportunities.

I think both lack in their defensive game, but hopefully their will also be improvements in that area from many of the lads at PP this year.

The fact that he's a number one draft pick is irrelevant. When round one comes and if Denis doesn't think he's ready I think it would be foolish to play him just because he was a number one draft pick. There's nothing wrong with spending 5-10 games in the VFL. As Bainuzz pointed out Waite spent all of his first year in the VFL. He turned out ok if you ask me. I'd imagine it would be a massive step up from TAC to AFL and apart from the odd freak how many 18 year olds play every game?
If Denis thinks he's ready and he doesn't lose confidence then I'd be thrilled to see him play every game.

I don't mind that side Tyrone, however I think the club will give Davies a go first up as he has done well in the off-season.

yeah, I wouldn't mind that either. As long as there's "effort" in Davies, he has the "talent" to mix-it-up for senior selection. I'd toss the coin on Davies or Houlihan, depending on their respective efforts (as both are pretty talented.

I reckon ultimately there is no easy answer. For every Jarrad Waite and Michael Tuck, there is a Judd, a Luke Ball and a DeLedio.

There are no proven stats on playing players too early (besides physical wear and tear, which can be monitored), and there is no indusputable evidence that early exposure is the right thing either.

I think it comes back ultimately to the way the side is coached, and the culture of the organisation. A side like Hawthorn has embraced youth. Carlton in the 90s were a tough team to break into, and didn't always make recruits welcome.

What Im proposing is adopting more of the Hawthorn mindset of playing our young guns, and encouraging them to run and create ala Buddy Franklin. We play Murphy etc etc because he's an awesome talent and the future of the team. We embrace effort and brashness, and overlook mistakes.

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Love Cricket? Love me

Whilst it would be awesome to see Marc Murphy play all 22 games, I don't think it will happen. I'd love to see him get an early go as long as he's shown his wares capably in the Wizzie or whatever it's called now and is in good form. Which, judging from reports, is not a worry. If he's only getting limited time (say half an hour, 45 mins a game), then drop him to the magoos so he can a) get a full game, b) get confidence from picking up a regular 25 touches and a goal each week, and c) learn from the 'leaders' who will more than likely be there (Prender etc). if he doesn't feel he belongs, then he shouldn't. Hopefully Pagan recognises this.

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Cer 'ch 'n alluog Blues

I'm with Tyrants on this youth issue...youth gets preference and new youth should be trialled as soon as possible to see how they handle themselves so you can get a reading on how long the apprenticeship is going to take for some players.
We have had this English cricket team selection policy approach for too long and its time to get with the times...even the English cricket selectors are picking youth now and seeing results.....some of us are still in the dark ages.....if you think picking good ordinary players like Chambers, Prenda, Longmuir etc ahead of young turks is going to get us anywhere then your dreaming....they are fill ins, list fill, hamburger helpers, but not the real deal...
Waiting five years for a top draft pick to develop isnt on anymore...you could have project players on mass when you had a list of 52 but those days are over.
Marc Murphy needs to be like Deledio was for Richmond in his first year and like Luke Ball is now in three years time....otherwise we are off the pace again ....we dont need Murphy falling behind the next generation led by Bryce Gibbs etc we need Murphy at the top of the young guns tree and that means giving him every opportunity to play seniors....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

The point is Tyrant, confidence can be shot - whether as a 16 year old or a seventy year old, it can happen. Will it happen - who knows? But it cannot be disregarded; managing confidence is also part of a coaches job.

If we are shit this year, is it great for Marc to play every game getting flogged? Will it be good for him to get game time in a winning side?

I am not as concerned with picking kids. I think the evolution of this side will happen and I do not count on the play the kids and notch up games as any serious factor. Look at Houla. Fast 50 games there and so what. Mistakes apparent in game 1 are still apparent in game 51.

I'd rather coach these kids in the firsts and the bullies to address those faults consistently and not reward them on a) their age or b) the shittiness of the team.

reward them for doing the things you are asking of them. reward them as they progress. And take it slowly.

of course in the end each kid will be treated as Denis sees fit and each will have different game time and game tallies. I'm happy to go with that. One thing we need is time for these kids to mature their bodies. That natural development will see this side alter as much as any other policy. (so long as we have drafted well of course).

I hope Marc plays every game but I do not expect it and it will not bug me if he only plays 10. He is either a very good footballer or he isn't. Game time in his first season it not an indication of either.

I am more excited about Tex, Simmo, AB, Russell and (with fingers crossed) Hartlett. These lads are developing strong bodies and we will see the results this season of their hard work.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!