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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:24 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Blue Vain wrote:
BigKev wrote:
How many players have decided to forego "reasonable contracts" elsewhere because they wanted to stay at Carlton and be part of the next premiership? How about none.

Winning the wooden spoon is not a recipe for long term success. If you look at recent premiers the only team to have one is the W. Bulldogs (2003). The most successful clubs this century, (Hawthorn, Sydney, Geelong), haven't seen one in decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... den_spoons


How would you know how many players have rejected reasonable contracts elsewhere to stay. :lol:
There could be 10? Didn't Kreuzer reject a big contract from GWS to stay?

Some of you blokes are panicking about the wooden spoon. Craig didn't say we are looking to win the spoon. He only said avoiding it isn't our primary focus. Development is. Surely thats the appropriate way to go.

Secondly, we're second bottom, not in wooden spoon position.
As for your rubbish about other clubs. Hawthorn finished second bottom in 2004. Exactly where we are now.
The 2004 draft netted them Roughead from their priority pick and Franklin from their first pick. That didn't seem to destroy their attempts at long term success or compromise their culture.

We should be focussing on developing and fast tracking the players. Whatever it takes to achieve long term success as soon as possible should be our focus.
Not worrying about sooky supporters worrying what people will say about finishing 1 or 2 spots lower on the ladder.


I'd like to debate you BV but I'm not 100% sure what you're actually saying.

It sounds like your taking great comfort in us being in spoon territory because this shows that we're concentrating on developing and fast tracking players?
Maybe it's because we're just not very good.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Location: looking for a good bloke to have a beer with
BigKev wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
BigKev wrote:
How many players have decided to forego "reasonable contracts" elsewhere because they wanted to stay at Carlton and be part of the next premiership? How about none.

Winning the wooden spoon is not a recipe for long term success. If you look at recent premiers the only team to have one is the W. Bulldogs (2003). The most successful clubs this century, (Hawthorn, Sydney, Geelong), haven't seen one in decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... den_spoons


How would you know how many players have rejected reasonable contracts elsewhere to stay. :lol:
There could be 10? Didn't Kreuzer reject a big contract from GWS to stay?

Some of you blokes are panicking about the wooden spoon. Craig didn't say we are looking to win the spoon. He only said avoiding it isn't our primary focus. Development is. Surely thats the appropriate way to go.

Secondly, we're second bottom, not in wooden spoon position.
As for your rubbish about other clubs. Hawthorn finished second bottom in 2004. Exactly where we are now.
The 2004 draft netted them Roughead from their priority pick and Franklin from their first pick. That didn't seem to destroy their attempts at long term success or compromise their culture.

We should be focussing on developing and fast tracking the players. Whatever it takes to achieve long term success as soon as possible should be our focus.
Not worrying about sooky supporters worrying what people will say about finishing 1 or 2 spots lower on the ladder.


I'd like to debate you BV but I'm not 100% sure what you're actually saying.

It sounds like your taking great comfort in us being in spoon territory because this shows that we're concentrating on developing and fast tracking players?
Maybe it's because we're just not very good.


Maybe it could be because we are playing a bunch of kids with <40 games and those teams tend to lose more than they win - see GWS first 2 years.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17952
BigKev wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
BigKev wrote:
How many players have decided to forego "reasonable contracts" elsewhere because they wanted to stay at Carlton and be part of the next premiership? How about none.

Winning the wooden spoon is not a recipe for long term success. If you look at recent premiers the only team to have one is the W. Bulldogs (2003). The most successful clubs this century, (Hawthorn, Sydney, Geelong), haven't seen one in decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... den_spoons


How would you know how many players have rejected reasonable contracts elsewhere to stay. :lol:
There could be 10? Didn't Kreuzer reject a big contract from GWS to stay?

Some of you blokes are panicking about the wooden spoon. Craig didn't say we are looking to win the spoon. He only said avoiding it isn't our primary focus. Development is. Surely thats the appropriate way to go.

Secondly, we're second bottom, not in wooden spoon position.
As for your rubbish about other clubs. Hawthorn finished second bottom in 2004. Exactly where we are now.
The 2004 draft netted them Roughead from their priority pick and Franklin from their first pick. That didn't seem to destroy their attempts at long term success or compromise their culture.

We should be focussing on developing and fast tracking the players. Whatever it takes to achieve long term success as soon as possible should be our focus.
Not worrying about sooky supporters worrying what people will say about finishing 1 or 2 spots lower on the ladder.


I'd like to debate you BV but I'm not 100% sure what you're actually saying.

It sounds like your taking great comfort in us being in spoon territory because this shows that we're concentrating on developing and fast tracking players?
Maybe it's because we're just not very good.


That's where you're confused. I take no comfort in where we finish unless it's vying for a premiership.
If we aren't contending, then I want us to be building a list to contend. Where we finish whilst that is happening is irrelevant.
But like Neil Craig said, we can't have that objective being delayed or derailed by worrying about whether we finish 17th or 18th.
The focus is building a list to take us to a premiership. If the club continues on that path with conviction, I'll let the negative types take great comfort in finishing 1 spot above the bottom. As long as their negativity doesn't deter the club from what's important.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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The club must stay the course. For once, let's stick to a long term plan. What difference does it make if we finish 15th or 18th in 2017?

The club is not tanking for draft picks. This is a genuine rebuild. It's about setting us up for sustained success for 2019 and beyond. It would be short sighted and irresponsible to deviate from that plan just to avoid the spoon in 2017.

Honestly, I don't think I've looked at the ladder all year. It's irrelevant to me until 2019.

I hope the Board, Trigg, SOS & Bolts can block out the noise too.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:42 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 21415
Location: North of the border
Blue Vain wrote:
BigKev wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
BigKev wrote:
How many players have decided to forego "reasonable contracts" elsewhere because they wanted to stay at Carlton and be part of the next premiership? How about none.

Winning the wooden spoon is not a recipe for long term success. If you look at recent premiers the only team to have one is the W. Bulldogs (2003). The most successful clubs this century, (Hawthorn, Sydney, Geelong), haven't seen one in decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... den_spoons


How would you know how many players have rejected reasonable contracts elsewhere to stay. :lol:
There could be 10? Didn't Kreuzer reject a big contract from GWS to stay?

Some of you blokes are panicking about the wooden spoon. Craig didn't say we are looking to win the spoon. He only said avoiding it isn't our primary focus. Development is. Surely thats the appropriate way to go.

Secondly, we're second bottom, not in wooden spoon position.
As for your rubbish about other clubs. Hawthorn finished second bottom in 2004. Exactly where we are now.
The 2004 draft netted them Roughead from their priority pick and Franklin from their first pick. That didn't seem to destroy their attempts at long term success or compromise their culture.

We should be focussing on developing and fast tracking the players. Whatever it takes to achieve long term success as soon as possible should be our focus.
Not worrying about sooky supporters worrying what people will say about finishing 1 or 2 spots lower on the ladder.


I'd like to debate you BV but I'm not 100% sure what you're actually saying.

It sounds like your taking great comfort in us being in spoon territory because this shows that we're concentrating on developing and fast tracking players?
Maybe it's because we're just not very good.


That's where you're confused. I take no comfort in where we finish unless it's vying for a premiership.
If we aren't contending, then I want us to be building a list to contend. Where we finish whilst that is happening is irrelevant.
But like Neil Craig said, we can't have that objective being delayed or derailed by worrying about whether we finish 17th or 18th.
The focus is building a list to take us to a premiership. If the club continues on that path with conviction, I'll let the negative types take great comfort in finishing 1 spot above the bottom. As long as their negativity doesn't deter the club from what's important.
And if the rebuild doesn't work.
Do you start all over again.
The club could go to the wall whilst you keep building and rebuilding.
Going to the draft and playing youth is not a sure fire way that will lead you to success.
It can and quite often fails .
If the club continues to get it wrong as we have done in the past . What is this rebuild MK3 since 2002 .
It is negligent of the club in a professional competition to not put the best side on the park each week that will put them in a position to win.
Using development is a poor excuse for poor performance.
Club is at a loss to explain why membership is so low.
They just need to look at results.
This is a business not an experimental lab

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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What should the club be doing then?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:55 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 24612
Location: Kaloyasena
Sorry Sydney Blue - you're way off.

Under the current AFL regime there is no other way to rebuild your club other than by Drafting and astute Trading/List Management.

You're right you can't afford to do it wrong too many times.

We got it way wrong in 2002.

We got it wrong in 2007.

We got it wrong in 2012.

If we get it wrong again - we could well be permanently flowered.

Don't forget whilst you're rebuilding other clubs are rebuilding too - so it's imperative that you do it better than the other 17 clubs - for the past 15 years we have been nowhere near it, right now we might just be going par for the course.

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Last edited by AGRO on Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:55 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17952
Sydney Blue wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
BigKev wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
BigKev wrote:
How many players have decided to forego "reasonable contracts" elsewhere because they wanted to stay at Carlton and be part of the next premiership? How about none.

Winning the wooden spoon is not a recipe for long term success. If you look at recent premiers the only team to have one is the W. Bulldogs (2003). The most successful clubs this century, (Hawthorn, Sydney, Geelong), haven't seen one in decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... den_spoons


How would you know how many players have rejected reasonable contracts elsewhere to stay. :lol:
There could be 10? Didn't Kreuzer reject a big contract from GWS to stay?

Some of you blokes are panicking about the wooden spoon. Craig didn't say we are looking to win the spoon. He only said avoiding it isn't our primary focus. Development is. Surely thats the appropriate way to go.

Secondly, we're second bottom, not in wooden spoon position.
As for your rubbish about other clubs. Hawthorn finished second bottom in 2004. Exactly where we are now.
The 2004 draft netted them Roughead from their priority pick and Franklin from their first pick. That didn't seem to destroy their attempts at long term success or compromise their culture.

We should be focussing on developing and fast tracking the players. Whatever it takes to achieve long term success as soon as possible should be our focus.
Not worrying about sooky supporters worrying what people will say about finishing 1 or 2 spots lower on the ladder.


I'd like to debate you BV but I'm not 100% sure what you're actually saying.

It sounds like your taking great comfort in us being in spoon territory because this shows that we're concentrating on developing and fast tracking players?
Maybe it's because we're just not very good.


That's where you're confused. I take no comfort in where we finish unless it's vying for a premiership.
If we aren't contending, then I want us to be building a list to contend. Where we finish whilst that is happening is irrelevant.
But like Neil Craig said, we can't have that objective being delayed or derailed by worrying about whether we finish 17th or 18th.
The focus is building a list to take us to a premiership. If the club continues on that path with conviction, I'll let the negative types take great comfort in finishing 1 spot above the bottom. As long as their negativity doesn't deter the club from what's important.
And if the rebuild doesn't work.
Do you start all over again.


Let me know what the options are Syd.
If it doesn't work, what would you like us to do?
Some times I think you argue for the sake of it.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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The AFL will make us strong again... even it takes them humiliating us again by gifting us priority picks


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:25 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:49 am
Posts: 1621
Rexy wrote:
The AFL will make us strong again... even it takes them humiliating us again by gifting us priority picks



Spot on, CFC is an important brand and integral component of AFL.
If we end up wth the spoon again that's 2 in 3 years, we'll defentialty get a PP .
I'm hope it's a juicy one and helps us replenish and upgrade our midfield.
GonBaggers

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Location: Kaloyasena
I'm sure Sydney Blue would not want us to go all 2004 again and pump up our list with Digby Morrells and Jordan Bannisters and Daniel Harfords to finish an honourable 11th and draft in an Adam Hartlett and a Jordan Russell.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:09 pm 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 8:24 pm
Posts: 829
Blue Vain wrote:
BigKev wrote:
How many players have decided to forego "reasonable contracts" elsewhere because they wanted to stay at Carlton and be part of the next premiership? How about none.

Winning the wooden spoon is not a recipe for long term success. If you look at recent premiers the only team to have one is the W. Bulldogs (2003). The most successful clubs this century, (Hawthorn, Sydney, Geelong), haven't seen one in decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... den_spoons


How would you know how many players have rejected reasonable contracts elsewhere to stay. :lol:
There could be 10? Didn't Kreuzer reject a big contract from GWS to stay?

Some of you blokes are panicking about the wooden spoon. Craig didn't say we are looking to win the spoon. He only said avoiding it isn't our primary focus. Development is. Surely thats the appropriate way to go.

Secondly, we're second bottom, not in wooden spoon position.
As for your rubbish about other clubs. Hawthorn finished second bottom in 2004. Exactly where we are now.
The 2004 draft netted them Roughead from their priority pick and Franklin from their first pick. That didn't seem to destroy their attempts at long term success or compromise their culture.

We should be focussing on developing and fast tracking the players. Whatever it takes to achieve long term success as soon as possible should be our focus.
Not worrying about sooky supporters worrying what people will say about finishing 1 or 2 spots lower on the ladder.


Spot on BV. :thumbsup:

I posted one little positive sentence this morning and people still want to rant and rave negatively. It's unfortunate that some people are so keen to be negative.

Sorry SB but I don't agree with you.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:10 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 24612
Location: Kaloyasena
bmaurizio wrote:
Rexy wrote:
The AFL will make us strong again... even it takes them humiliating us again by gifting us priority picks



Spot on, CFC is an important brand and integral component of AFL.
If we end up wth the spoon again that's 2 in 3 years, we'll defentialty get a PP .
I'm hope it's a juicy one and helps us replenish and upgrade our midfield.
GonBaggers



I didn't know we had plans to change our colours to red and black.


:razz:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 8:24 pm
Posts: 829
BigKev wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
BigKev wrote:
How many players have decided to forego "reasonable contracts" elsewhere because they wanted to stay at Carlton and be part of the next premiership? How about none.

Winning the wooden spoon is not a recipe for long term success. If you look at recent premiers the only team to have one is the W. Bulldogs (2003). The most successful clubs this century, (Hawthorn, Sydney, Geelong), haven't seen one in decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... den_spoons


How would you know how many players have rejected reasonable contracts elsewhere to stay. :lol:
There could be 10? Didn't Kreuzer reject a big contract from GWS to stay?

Some of you blokes are panicking about the wooden spoon. Craig didn't say we are looking to win the spoon. He only said avoiding it isn't our primary focus. Development is. Surely thats the appropriate way to go.

Secondly, we're second bottom, not in wooden spoon position.
As for your rubbish about other clubs. Hawthorn finished second bottom in 2004. Exactly where we are now.
The 2004 draft netted them Roughead from their priority pick and Franklin from their first pick. That didn't seem to destroy their attempts at long term success or compromise their culture.

We should be focussing on developing and fast tracking the players. Whatever it takes to achieve long term success as soon as possible should be our focus.
Not worrying about sooky supporters worrying what people will say about finishing 1 or 2 spots lower on the ladder.


I'd like to debate you BV but I'm not 100% sure what you're actually saying.

It sounds like your taking great comfort in us being in spoon territory because this shows that we're concentrating on developing and fast tracking players?
Maybe it's because we're just not very good.


That says it all. People don't even understand what the other person is saying but are still hell bent in their desire to debate it. :donk:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:22 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Posts: 6047
Sydney Blue wrote:
It is negligent of the club in a professional competition to not put the best side on the park each week that will put them in a position to win.


Out of interest, when do you think we have done that in 2017? Example?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:36 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 21415
Location: North of the border
AGRO wrote:
I'm sure Sydney Blue would not want us to go all 2004 again and pump up our list with Digby Morrells and Jordan Bannisters and Daniel Harfords to finish an honourable 11th and draft in an Adam Hartlett and a Jordan Russell.
Gorringe Palmer Smedts Thomas Phillips KJ
Would all like to say hello Agro

We have been turning over 10 plus players a year for the last ten years.
The side needs to forget about planning for the future and start planning for the now as the future might never come.
They need to start winning and develop a winning culture

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:38 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 21415
Location: North of the border
aboynamedsue wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
It is negligent of the club in a professional competition to not put the best side on the park each week that will put them in a position to win.


Out of interest, when do you think we have done that in 2017? Example?
Port Adelaide game jumps out at me

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:40 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 6047
Sydney Blue wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
It is negligent of the club in a professional competition to not put the best side on the park each week that will put them in a position to win.


Out of interest, when do you think we have done that in 2017? Example?
Port Adelaide game jumps out at me

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

Who did we have in the reserves that week who would have been the difference in a game we lost by 15 goals?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:58 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 21415
Location: North of the border
aboynamedsue wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
It is negligent of the club in a professional competition to not put the best side on the park each week that will put them in a position to win.


Out of interest, when do you think we have done that in 2017? Example?
Port Adelaide game jumps out at me

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

Who did we have in the reserves that week who would have been the difference in a game we lost by 15 goals?
Made 4 changes the following week and beat Sydney

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:06 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 24612
Location: Kaloyasena
Sydney Blue wrote:
AGRO wrote:
I'm sure Sydney Blue would not want us to go all 2004 again and pump up our list with Digby Morrells and Jordan Bannisters and Daniel Harfords to finish an honourable 11th and draft in an Adam Hartlett and a Jordan Russell.
Gorringe Palmer Smedts Thomas Phillips KJ
Would all like to say hello Agro

We have been turning over 10 plus players a year for the last ten years.
The side needs to forget about planning for the future and start planning for the now as the future might never come.
They need to start winning and develop a winning culture

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk



Those players aren't forming the core part of the best 22 playing unit.

:wink:

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