Phillips averages about 70% game time bondi, I'm not making that up. He is being played to deliver a centre bounce and potential clearance advantage, and that's it.

He doesn't manage to provide enough of what he's picked for, ergo he should be dropped.

As for your Casboult comments, those are completely wrong; Casboult has played second ruck several times this year.

What you're trying to get through to me is that we started with a plan, the plan failed, we moved on from the plan, and with a raft of injuries to our preferred forwards, we threw White into the mix and picked Phillips to keep Levi up front. That was about plan D, let's move onto to plan E.

I'm really not the one being emotive and failing to provide clear and factual evidence bondi, and my respect for you (and those reading) leads me to give an explanation rather than a one-line jibe.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

I would drop one of Phillips or Kreuzer, have Casboult as the 2nd ruck and bring in KJ to play permanent forward. If Casboult was owning the forward line and bagging 3 or 4 goals a game I would be happy for him to stay permanently up forward, but he isn't and we've got one too many lumbering talls who don't get their hands on the footy enough.

Looking forward to seeing us take on the racist sexists at the G.

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#DonTheStash

Plan E jimmae?

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"Get ready, Teddy - you're on": Ron Barassi half time 1970 Grand Final

The MC started with Phillips from the first game and have persisted with him.

Got progressively better until injured against the Bombers. He was pretty good in that game in most peoples opinion.

As soon as his hammy got better he was straight back in. Not great on the weekend, but we didn't have many winners.

I'd be surprised if the MC dropped him again as it appears their preference is for two rucks and see Phillips as a reasonable long term prospect.

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I hope Essendon* folds.

no, just no.

lets not turn weitering into a basketcase by ripping him out of a position where he's our best player and putting him somewhere where even in juniors, he's played limited time there.


you don't take a 9 out of 10 chb, and throw him forward. we did it to henderson and both his forward and defensive game ultimately suffered. this and even next season are about resetting, rebuilding and consolidating what we have and filling holes where we don't have anything.

we need patience and draft picks ... no need to throw wetiers to the lions.

I'd be surprised if the MC see two rucks who cannot provide goals nor sustained hitouts to advantage in a split role as viable for the rest of the season.

If I were Kreuzer, if it continued I'd be asking for a trade at the end of the year; he'd have suitors.

To play the way Phillips plays, he needs to be out there, rucking 80+% of the time. If he were capable of that, he'd be playing up forward a bunch in a split role and making some nice leads instead of sitting on the bench. The experiment has failed, and there's nothing that can be done in-season about fixing it.

He needs to go back to VFL and show something pretty special to get ahead of Kreuzer. We have Rowe, Gorringe and Casboult who can pinch hit and actually do damage in another role.

Phillips is the new Warnock, in a deceptive piece of packaging and associated spin. If that's our long term strategy when it comes to acquiring ruck talent, we're not going to get very far without a NicNat, Lobb or Tippett type falling into our lap.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Sorry bg I missed this first time around; who is the defensive replacement? White, Jamison or JGM?

Rhetorical question really.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

they tried that jim. kruezer failed the fitness tests at where was it, the dogs and pies?

There was uncertainty about his durability, something he's putting to bed this season.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

I'd suggest there's still uncertainty as they continue with 2 rucks.

jimmae wrote



I don't think that's entirely true. Rounds 1-4 Kreuzer and Philips changed as the KPF with Kreuzer taking on the bulk of the ruck. There's also the need for insurance in case Kreuzer breas down and contrary to your view, Philips must have been seen as a FF target because he may have been considered a better mark than Kreuzer based on NAB form. Philips earned his spot and only lost it when he got injured icking...THE winning GOAL!



But Bolton prefers 2 rucks and you want Gorrige who doesn't play ruck, and when he does the opposition mids take the ball out of centre and kick easy goals.



Clutching for straws jimmae. He has never played 2nd ruck when we have had 2 fit rucks available and playing. When Philips went out injured and we didn't have Gorringe available because he too had an injury against Collingwood and Port Casboult played 2nd ruck wilst Kreuzer played 1st ruck for mst of the game. Suests Casboult could play 2nd ruck from KPF and leave Jones Everitt and Kreuzer KPFs with success...but I think we're overrating Collingwood and Port in those 2 games. plus the point is Bolton wants 2 rucks, and the dete is which 2? Since Gorringe came into the team Casboult has played KPF.



No I am not. Yopu are saying I am saying tat. Ive explained myself in a nutshell last post. hilips was in the ruck from the first game to the season, inuding first 2 wins till he was injured. No plan failed, Philips played a really good game, took a great mark, kicked the winning goal from 50 and did his hammy in the process. He wasn't selected because of injury. Philips was selected from the game 1, Plan A, the oribinal plan. Which part of that do you not agree with? I can't see how you start the season rom plan D. Just sa you've got your facts wrong again and move on. You're making up stories again.



You are not explaining. You are making up stories, taking things out of context, and not answering any questions I pose. Hence why I suggest you sound like a politician.

The debate we have indulged in is:

1 ruck or 2?
Bolton prefers 2 rucks as does Hawthorn
If 2 which 2 rucks?
Should Casboult play as the 2nd ruck changing from a KPF post?
If so who plays the other KPF role? Jaksch Jones Gorringe Everitt Rowe?
Should it be Rowe?

I'm adding to the debate?

Is Kreuzer an elite ruckman?
Does he beat or break even against the leading ruckmen?
Who do we develop whilst Kreuzer is around?
How long will Kreuzer be around as our first ruck? Question of durability and end of a career.
Is Philips ahead of Kreuzer?
Will Philips and Gorringe become elite ruckmen?
Should we be targeting a bona fide ruckman to replacxe Kreuzer?

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

That's my position too...and I'm just reading the signs.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Phillips was starting to show some very good signs but sadly when he kicked that important goal vs Ess he also did his hammy around then, so terrible timing.

He needs to be given a good go at it as hopefully he is about to blossom as a ruckman.

Whether we should have 2 rucks or 1 I am not an expert so have no idea.

Everytime Kreuzer goes to a marking contest, I think of this

Yep.

But then neither you or I nominated Phillips a spud before he played a game, so we don't have the baggage.

Might get dropped next week, might not. I think not.

_________________
I hope Essendon* folds.

Whichever combination provides a ruck division and support for the forward, defence or midfield such that they are each on the park for at least 80% game time.


Hawthorn has no other choice at the moment, but they definitely preferred a second ruck with Hale


The only two senior list rucks IMO are Kreuzer and Phillips; I see Gorringe as a forward/ruck that has been brought in as insurance for Casboult.


Yes; his form is generally better when he does


If everyone was fit and I was the MC, I'd go with:

Armfield Casboult Wright
Everitt McKay Sumner

With one of Charlie Curnow, SOS, Walker or Lamb on the bench. That's this season mind you, not medium/long term.


Yes, but he is not an elite 'tap' ruckman; people who compare him to Prendergast have rocks in their head


In terms of overall game impact, he tends to hold his own save for those who have a genuine leap advantage over him, and are able to use it at ground-level stoppages. NicNat and Hampson would be examples of that.


A youngster, someone who isn't on our list right now.


Three years minimum IMO, but he's got a contract until the end of next year if the worst case scenario unfolds.


He only beats him in terms of leap and height; he is a superior player in every other sense.


Phillips has to work heavily on his endurance (and durability is also a concern for him), while Gorringe is more likely an elite forward if we're going to pick positions for them to excel at.


I assume you mean a mature ruck as well; if we feel he can't serve out another contract, yes. As far as I know, Phillips doesn't have a contract beyond 2017.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

SOS (not SOSOS) was FB of the century and he still kicked more than 200 goals. A far less talented guy was a handy swingman for West Coast and played in a premiership team and his name was Adam Hunter. Does Weitering have some sort of allergy to the forward line or something?

_________________
Essendon-Only team to have ever been found guilty of salary cap breaches in a premiership year!

jimmae wrote



It is what their preference has been whilst you continue with this line. Why does it surprise you? Whether its Philips, Gorringe and may I add Kreuzer to continue to fail to do the abovementioned, as they do, te MC continue to pick them. They are the best we have and none are elite nor consistent. One just happens to be a No1 Draft pick.



Are you serious jimmae? We tried to get something for him. We tried to give him away. Doggies and Pies said NO! He is maimed. No big loss. We will not miss him until we have 2 injured ruckmen.



Maybe they are developing him and his engine with the big boys. And why does Kreuzer go to the bench? And how does Philips get an average 70% game time (your figure) which tells me sometimes its less that 70 but sotimes its higher. 80 is higher than 70 isn't it? Did you see our forwadline aganst GWS. We had no one in the forwardline most of the time.No Philips, No Kreuzer. No Casboult. No Everitt. No Walker. No marking targets. Why?

He needs to go back to VFL and show something pretty special to get ahead of Kreuzer. We have Rowe, Gorringe and Casboult who can pinch hit and actually do damage in another role.



What and bring in Gorringe? Same problem less he starts to commit to the physical requirements when he has to go into the ruck; that's all. You hit nail with last sentence. We need a bona fide ruckman like one of those would be nice. We need one! The current 3 are not showing enough this year, but maybe Philips is being developed because the MC see something. That's my hunch. I still don't think Philips is the answer.

Look it is Boltons and Silvagnis first year with the list. They de many changes and have created a new game plan and a new Carlton. There will be change at the end of the year. I'm sure they know we need midfielders with class and speed, a couple of KPs, one forward and one back and a good ruckman.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Now I get where you are coming from jimmae.
Thanks for that response.

We will always disagree on this topic.

I'm sure Bolton prefers 2 rucks so I go with him. Plus I like 2 rucks in a GF.
Hawthorn have always had a choice for 2 ruckmen and have traded accordingly

I do not think Kreuzer is anywhere near elite.
I think Kreuzer is past his peak and not durable.
I think Kreuzer cannot play forward.
I think a ruck should be a marking target to help us get out of trouble and Kreuzer is not that.
I think a ruck should be durable.
I'd be surprised if Kreuzers body holds up till 2017.
If we find another ruckman its bye bye Kreuzer unless its a cheap one year extension.
I don't think Kreuzer has currency.

Casboults form may improve because he gets to the play.
Unfortunately when he gets hit a bit as ruckmen do he loses his weapon to jump and mark.
Its how we get the ball to him which is the problem. Casboult can mark...if he's not exhausted.

When I asked who you'd play as a KPF I'm talking about now! Who is available because we are talking about whose turn it is and what they can give us

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue