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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 10:21 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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There was a stat during the GC game showing that the teams who are ranked highly for clearances (except Freo) are the ones down the bottom of the ladder.

Clearances don't mean as much as they used to. Especially if your clearances are just blind bombs to the opposition's spare man. Like our's.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 11:08 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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99prelim wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
King Kenny wrote:
Drewgirl wrote:
So we don't go to the games then. MLG and the board can go and watch them themselves.


Fact: no coach is going to help this rabble win games this year.


Disagree.

Our stoppage and contested footy has been good. We just need to move the ball quickly and not around the boundary line.
Don't give teams an opportunity to drop players behind the ball. We'd be a basket case if we couldn't win the ball first.
That's not the case.
A coach who instils belief and confidence in the players and presents a faster paced game style will reap rewards.
We won't be world beaters but we'll be far more competitive than we are currently.


Has anyone ever considered the fact that opposition coaches dont mind us winning contested possessions? I reckon those numbers are artificially inflated
They just set up 30-50m ahead of the ball where we'll just bomb it...turnover central

Correct

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:36 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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That's been noted here previously but thats a coaching issue.
Since Mick took over we have been bottom 3 in the AFL for uncontested possessions. No run or spread.
That's not personnel.
Under Ratten we were usually well balanced with our contested V uncontested ball. Mid to upper table for contested footy and uncontested. Balance.

As for the correlation of contested footy to success. Over the past number of years, the bottom 4 sides are usually the teams that win the least amount of contested footy. That has to be the starting point.
You win the ball first, then your structures and strategies determine how you progress from there.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:55 am 
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Craig Bradley
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Stone Free wrote:
For the same money the club can buy a Hyundai a week and drive it off a cliff. Would be more entertaining.



only if it's filled with coaching staff and board members.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:59 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Braithy wrote:
Stone Free wrote:
For the same money the club can buy a Hyundai a week and drive it off a cliff. Would be more entertaining.



only if it's filled with coaching staff and board members.

:grin:

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:05 am 
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Craig Bradley
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agree, measuring contested possessions/ clearances is no longer a gauge to how good you're going.

hawks – and now the dogs – are a great example. they play the "give them enough rope, let 'em hang themselves" ball. they'll give up a stoppage by sending the minimum of players to it and then zoning off around the stoppage, wait for the other team to get the ball, look up have no one there and turn it over to them ... then they smash them on the rebound/ counter.

imo, if there was one stat modern footy is all about, it's disposal efficiency, followed by metres gained per disposal. the elite teams are finishing games in the 80% and having 5 or 6+ players average 300m gained (hawks have gone 90% Vs norf)... last time i checked carlton was 59%, and our metres gained is the worst in the league by a landslide.

basically it's about how much teams are willing to run and forward penetrate teams by foot.


Last edited by Braithy on Mon May 18, 2015 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:48 am 
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Ken Hunter
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I prefer backward penetration

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:59 am 
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Craig Bradley
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you sure do.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:43 am 
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Ken Hunter
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uoy erus od )!hcuo(

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:52 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Blue Vain wrote:
That's been noted here previously but thats a coaching issue.
Since Mick took over we have been bottom 3 in the AFL for uncontested possessions. No run or spread.
That's not personnel.
Under Ratten we were usually well balanced with our contested V uncontested ball. Mid to upper table for contested footy and uncontested. Balance.

As for the correlation of contested footy to success. Over the past number of years, the bottom 4 sides are usually the teams that win the least amount of contested footy. That has to be the starting point.
You win the ball first, then your structures and strategies determine how you progress from there.


Speaking to an ex-Collingwood player the other day and he said something along the line 'Mick loves making sure he can have a dozen run with players in his team, (which illustrates what we see with his selections and positioning) problem is the game has changed now'.
I did mention that I didn't believe he did that during his Collingwood reign but he preceded to highlight how I was wrong...I was wrong!
:banghead:


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:52 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Hornet wrote:
What's this "he hates Carlton"... "taking the club down with him"

Has his coaching methodology changed this year?



no it hasn't, has it
does that tell you anything about the man


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:57 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:49 pm
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Braithy wrote:
agree, measuring contested possessions/ clearances is no longer a gauge to how good you're going.

hawks – and now the dogs – are a great example. they play the "give them enough rope, let 'em hang themselves" ball. they'll give up a stoppage by sending the minimum of players to it and then zoning off around the stoppage, wait for the other team to get the ball, look up have no one there and turn it over to them ... then they smash them on the rebound/ counter.

imo, if there was one stat modern footy is all about, it's disposal efficiency, followed by metres gained per disposal. the elite teams are finishing games in the 80% and having 5 or 6+ players average 300m gained (hawks have gone 90% Vs norf)... last time i checked carlton was 59%, and our metres gained is the worst in the league by a landslide.

basically it's about how much teams are willing to run and forward penetrate teams by foot.


Could't agree more, if a side can't use the ball effectively it's all over. Saints/Crows game on the weekend a good example.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:14 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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As the Club are not going to sack MM and MM is not going to resign, the Mexican stand off needs to be quickly be brought to an end.

The Club should advise all concerned that he will not be re-appointed and start a long, hard look for the right person, by firstly defining what are the attributes of such a person.

At the same time remove MM from match day coaching responsibilities and progressively and quietly all other areas of influence as the season progresses.

MM can remain coach in all but name, being paid handsomely and importantly locked into the company line for the duration.

Give the match day responsibility to one of the assistant coaches for the rest of the season and support him to make the best of the situation and show their stuff.

The Club gets a chance to start again by side stepping the resign or be sacked scenario.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:33 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Location: Recovering from the 1st effort
Rocco Iguana wrote:
As the Club are not going to sack MM and MM is not going to resign, the Mexican stand off needs to be quickly be brought to an end.

The Club should advise all concerned that he will not be re-appointed and start a long, hard look for the right person, by firstly defining what are the attributes of such a person.

At the same time remove MM from match day coaching responsibilities and progressively and quietly all other areas of influence as the season progresses.

MM can remain coach in all but name, being paid handsomely and importantly locked into the company line for the duration.

Give the match day responsibility to one of the assistant coaches for the rest of the season and support him to make the best of the situation and show their stuff.

The Club gets a chance to start again by side stepping the resign or be sacked scenario.


Nope...dog act that would definitely tarnish the brand. As much as anything we need to be seen as an attractive place to work. As Dick Pratt said, we don't want the best available, we want the best. Having a situation where we treat an employee that badly hardly sends the right messages to the next guy we want to bring on board.

I am afraid we are suck with him as we probably cant afford to pay him out and hire somebody else. I suspect this has been the source of Loguidice's feigned loyalty from the start. If we do have any $$ available, rather than topping up Malthouse's super, lets spend it on scouting/recruiting so that we make best use of the picks coming our way at year's end! Let's get some kids that can run and kick!

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:49 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17961
Braithy wrote:
agree, measuring contested possessions/ clearances is no longer a gauge to how good you're going.

hawks – and now the dogs – are a great example. they play the "give them enough rope, let 'em hang themselves" ball. they'll give up a stoppage by sending the minimum of players to it and then zoning off around the stoppage, wait for the other team to get the ball, look up have no one there and turn it over to them ... then they smash them on the rebound/ counter.

imo, if there was one stat modern footy is all about, it's disposal efficiency, followed by metres gained per disposal. the elite teams are finishing games in the 80% and having 5 or 6+ players average 300m gained (hawks have gone 90% Vs norf)... last time i checked carlton was 59%, and our metres gained is the worst in the league by a landslide.

basically it's about how much teams are willing to run and forward penetrate teams by foot.


Yes but you're addressing the outcome but I'm talking about the methodology that produces that outcome.
Disposal efficiency is largely based on having time and space to use the ball. It's no coincidence that the top 3 teams in the AFL last year for disposal efficiency also averaged the highest uncontested possession numbers per game.
It's also no coincidence that the top 4 sides in the AFL at the moment for disposal efficiency have the highest uncontested possession percentages.
And surprise surprise, those 4 teams are top 6 in the AFL.

It's also not a coincidence that our effective disposal numbers have gone through the floor with the change of game plan.
Under Ratten we were usually top 8 in the AFL for effective disposals (as high as second) because our uncontested numbers were much higher.
We ran, created, took attacking options and worked hard to retain possession.
Under Malthouse we gain possession, kick down the line and give the opposition a 50/50 chance at winning the ball back.

In Micks first year at the club our disposal efficiency dropped to last in the AFL. Guess what? Our uncontested possession average dropped to last as well. That's not personnel. That's purely game style.

So contested football numbers are enormously important. You have to win the ball to use it. It's game style that dictates how you function once you have won the ball. How you retain possession. That's what produces disposal efficiency.
That's coaching philosophy and structure.
As I've said previously, the key is to get the balance of contested V uncontested ball right. We're off the scale one way under Mick. That's purely coaching.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:28 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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2ndeffort wrote:
Rocco Iguana wrote:
As the Club are not going to sack MM and MM is not going to resign, the Mexican stand off needs to be quickly be brought to an end.

The Club should advise all concerned that he will not be re-appointed and start a long, hard look for the right person, by firstly defining what are the attributes of such a person.

At the same time remove MM from match day coaching responsibilities and progressively and quietly all other areas of influence as the season progresses.

MM can remain coach in all but name, being paid handsomely and importantly locked into the company line for the duration.

Give the match day responsibility to one of the assistant coaches for the rest of the season and support him to make the best of the situation and show their stuff.

The Club gets a chance to start again by side stepping the resign or be sacked scenario.


Nope...dog act that would definitely tarnish the brand. As much as anything we need to be seen as an attractive place to work. As Dick Pratt said, we don't want the best available, we want the best. Having a situation where we treat an employee that badly hardly sends the right messages to the next guy we want to bring on board.

I am afraid we are suck with him as we probably cant afford to pay him out and hire somebody else. I suspect this has been the source of Loguidice's feigned loyalty from the start. If we do have any $$ available, rather than topping up Malthouse's super, lets spend it on scouting/recruiting so that we make best use of the picks coming our way at year's end! Let's get some kids that can run and kick!



Better a "dog act" than a dog of a club.
The Club's a laughing stock, so tarnishing the brand is academic.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 2:24 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Rocco Iguana wrote:
Better a "dog act" than a dog of a club.
The Club's a laughing stock, so tarnishing the brand is academic.


I reckon the 'unfair dismissal' lawyers would have a field day with the strategy you posted. Mick would claim the club were trying to get him to resign rather than paying him out. Rather than having a clean break and respawn in Jan 2016, we would probably have to live through 2 years of drama as the poor old coach Mick, his stressed out extended family and his army of lawyers parade across the news and the back page of the paper taking our evil and morally corrupt (not to mention broke) club to the cleaners. At least that's how it would be portrayed.

Any new coach considering coming to Carlton would have to think twice before taking a job where the previous incumbent was treated so badly. No doubt somebody would eventually take the job but where on the list of preferences that person was to begin with who knows.

If we cant sell results the only other product the club can offer fans is hope. We need to start investing in hope. If we pay out Malthouse and hire somebody else the performances wont get much better but we will be out of pocket for Malthouse's termination payment. Unless we think there is a only a small window to get our dream coach of the future, why wouldn't we stay the course. The prime time to sell that hope is Jan/Feb when everyone is buying memberships. Let's sell hope whenever we can but save whatever resources we have for the big push next Jan/Feb, don't waste it now only for any inroads we buy to be washed away by the next inevitable 10 goal belting.

Although we will bleed fans and money in the short term there is still time to ramp up the 'hope machine' with a bunch of new exciting signings (including a new coach and some high draft picks) in October/November. All of the folks we sign will be February Brownlow favourites, right throughout the prime membership sales period and there's every chance we can 'con' one of the commentators to writing a fluff piece about how we've turned our fortunes around. Only a few months ago we were laughing at the Bulldogs and how they were a rabble that nobody wanted to play for, now they are the darlings of the comp with a young exciting list and a vibrant coach! It can all be turned around but without a mid season draft and opportunity to reset we are suck with what we have, batten down the hatches!

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 2:48 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Rocco Iguana wrote:
2ndeffort wrote:
Rocco Iguana wrote:
As the Club are not going to sack MM and MM is not going to resign, the Mexican stand off needs to be quickly be brought to an end.

The Club should advise all concerned that he will not be re-appointed and start a long, hard look for the right person, by firstly defining what are the attributes of such a person.

At the same time remove MM from match day coaching responsibilities and progressively and quietly all other areas of influence as the season progresses.

MM can remain coach in all but name, being paid handsomely and importantly locked into the company line for the duration.

Give the match day responsibility to one of the assistant coaches for the rest of the season and support him to make the best of the situation and show their stuff.

The Club gets a chance to start again by side stepping the resign or be sacked scenario.


Nope...dog act that would definitely tarnish the brand. As much as anything we need to be seen as an attractive place to work. As Dick Pratt said, we don't want the best available, we want the best. Having a situation where we treat an employee that badly hardly sends the right messages to the next guy we want to bring on board.

I am afraid we are suck with him as we probably cant afford to pay him out and hire somebody else. I suspect this has been the source of Loguidice's feigned loyalty from the start. If we do have any $$ available, rather than topping up Malthouse's super, lets spend it on scouting/recruiting so that we make best use of the picks coming our way at year's end! Let's get some kids that can run and kick!



Better a "dog act" than a dog of a club.
The Club's a laughing stock, so tarnishing the brand is academic.


We've gone way beyond laughing stock ...... we are officially "insignificant"

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:12 pm 
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formerly cj69

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Micks weekly review is embarrasing. You would GWS are the Premiership favourites. It seems everyone is better than us (although we know that).

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:13 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

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I just delete the e-mail when I get

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