They surely can't all be duds

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dane's trolling again

I'm not sure of the logic behind comparing our list profile with those of Geelong, Hawthorn and Sydney. They've been winning flags, Carlton have won two elimination finals. And Geelong's under 23s vs our under 23s, considering their draft picks vs ours.... my god. Just keep cashing those cheques, Hughes.

Hawthorn I can see falling off a bit of a cliff from 2015 onwards (Mitchell, Lake, Burgoyne, Hodge will either be gone or in decline). But I think any hawthorn fan will wear that considering how consistently relevant they have been since 2008 (2007, really, when they beat Adelaide and should have beaten Nth).

Sydney is a different story, they are subsidised by the league and take full advantage of it.

Synbad, whilst Judd’s contract was generous and significantly large enough to place pressure on our TPP it didn’t prevent us from astute recruiting and proper player development. At the time, we were still at a very low ebb as a club with a group of players who were either recently drafted and young or simply good, honest players and realistically neither group were commanding great coin besides Fev and Stevens. The TPP squeeze could not have been sufficient enough to impact on our drafting and recruiting options. I can’t see how our pursuit and eventual recruitment of Judd can be perceived as a mistake. Landing one of the best players of his generation at that time was fantastic. A masterstroke!

I understand the loss of Kennedy was a negative but the remaining trade swaps were inconsequential with hindsight. And besides, it didn’t stop us building towards a flag challenge if we were good enough. Which sadly we weren't

The fact that the club failed to capitalise on Judd’s arrival is the downside. And hopefully we have learnt lessons that will hold us in good stead moving forward although I think the AFL landscape is significantly tougher with the extra two teams and drain of talent draft for the non-expansion clubs. It is 19 years since our last triumph, 15 since we made the big dance. I really can’t predict when our next shot will come. It won’t be easy...

Judds recruitment allowed us to get lazier.
A sense of ownership but with cutting corners
People here thought we a great midfield.


Overall don't believe we received any long term benefits.

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I think that “laziness” is more a relic of our long-standing approach as a club following equalisation measures and our inability to conform to this.
I still can’t see how outstanding recruiting = lazy club and sub-standard player management and development

I believe it has more to do with a wider, endemic problem Carlton seems stuck with where we are unable to push ourselves to be the best anymore and seem to be trailing behind our competitors in regards to innovation and excellence

The hard headed pragmatist in me may agree with you Synners, however I think his signing accelerated our path to being relevant. I was there the day he ran out vs the Bulldogs in the practice match at Princes Park and it a great day to be a Carlton fan.

He played some truly special football for us, most often in big games, and has given me as much football viewing pleasure as anyone since Kouta in his pomp.

His 2nd half and late goal vs Richmond this year, that truly unbelievable snap on the left vs Geelong at Etihad a couple of years ago, his third quarter vs Sydney in the elimination final, the Brownlow (and Eddy's expression!!) etc. He delivered some special moments for the club. In a comp with 18 teams and significant, enshrined competitive imbalance - I've learned that enjoying moments like these is about as much as you ought to expect from the game.

I'm a bit concerned that now his powers are diminishing, all of that gets lost in the wash and the final estimation of his contribution is based on the player he is now and the state of the team now. e.g. I can't see that it's his fault if the club can't be strong enough to pay him appropriately at this stag of his career. is he supposed to knock it back?

I know you haven't pinned any of this on Judd (at least in your post in this thread), but I sense a tide towards 'what have you done lately' with Judd, which I think is not particularly fair or representative of the totality of what he has brought to the club. We had enough opportunities at the draft and trade table to put a team around Judd which could have been a consistent preliminary finalist, the club failed to grasp those opportunities.

And so ultimately, as a fan, I do and always will believe the trade was the right move.

youre only "relevant" if youre taken seriously by the competition.
We arent and have not been taken seriously.. so we are not relevant.

when we poach a player to be relevant ... we not relevant and wont be .

One player doesnt make u relevant anymore...

Thats actually the thinking that made us irelavent

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I wonder how many clubs in Carlton's position in 2008 wouldn't have made that trade. I think the number might be less than you think.

It's a very easy verdict to deliver in 2014 when things haven't worked out as you might have wished.

No issue with getting Judd, as if Gibbs and Kreuz had stepped up to elite bracket like we d expected them to by now, Fev had kept his marbles, and Stevens not having done his neck and retired at 29, we d have been much more successful.
Add to that better recruitment and development in the years following post season 2007, and things could ve easily been much different.

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James Hird and Essendon* FC - #FOREVERDRUGCHEATS

Exactly Dom7, overall whether by chance or design, we failed to capitalise on Judd’s arrival. The recruitment itself wasn’t flawed, it was how we failed to execute other facets of developing and running a football team appropriately.
I am a Gibbs fan, but he has taken FAR TOO LONG to reach elite status. Combination of poor management by coaches and perhaps insufficient self-motivation have resulted in this. Personally I think he is ready to enter elite status, especially after his end to last year
Issues with Kreuzer, Yarran, McLean, Warnock amongst others contributed to this missed opportunity. We coulda and shoulda done better

If only we had drafted 'the blueprint' prior to trading for Judd... ah what could've been.

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“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

Logic tells you we gave up too much.

2 top 4 picks.
one more top 20 pick
and a million dollars a season plus
a game plan revolving around his wallpapering

Would you do it again?
that would answer whether it was worth it the first time...

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Our subsequent drafting record shows that even with those picks (3 and 20) there was no guarantee we would have used them to bring in the talent we needed to get any further than we have. And it's debatable that we could have developed Kennedy to be the player he is today given our track record with our first round draft picks since 2008 - Yarran, Lucas, Watson, Bootsma. Our second and third round selections have been even worse though ...

The old chicken or the egg argument ... are we poor at drafting, or development, or BOTH! The answer probably lies somewhere as a combination of the two but the argument has been done to death and I'd much rather look forward than back. Here's hoping the likes of Graham and Menzel can establish themselves as regular contributors this season.

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In WADA we trust

Menzel is a no brainer to be a star, barring injury

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From the position we were in during the blackest part of our history and and to where we are at now is remarkable. The club was done and out considering here was a time when I didn't even know if I'd have a club to support.

Since then, We have managed to play more finals then some of the healthier clubs like Essendon* and Richmond.

Plenty of people at the club believe that it's onwards and upwards from here. The wealth of knowledge and experience Mick, Whiley and Laidley is having a very positive effect on our players and not just the players, speak to some in footy admin and club admin and they'll tell you how much has changed at the footy club because of Micks influence.

From what I'm hearing, Expect to see a very very versatile team take the field in 2014........ Something MM and Laidley are very excited about

They wanna keep opposition players and coaches guessing

The fact that he was chased by 5 or so big clubs proves it was a no brainer then as it would also be a no brainer now... imo

Although he's turned out nicely, JK wasn't all that loved back then... I mean most Carlton fans were happy to give him up and Masten is just as useful as hemorrhoids tbh... and the top 20 pick? well we're so good at them aren't we?

I've never had a problem with his price tag until his latter years... last year and beyond... time for the club to insist and him to accept hefty paycuts to go on any further. The gameplan is not his doing.

Would I do it again? with MM at the helm... absolutely. With Ratts I'd still say yes due to the benefits he brought to the club, but not an absolute... which is where our problems lie. You can't be blaming players for the incompetence of the club as a whole at that time... which still lingers.

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“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

Hindsight is wonderful but who wasn't singing a song of seventeen when they signed Judd?

Liar!

People are getting co what i am saying.
Judd has been a wonderful player though i would put ten Carlton footballers comfortably ahead of him.
Im not blaming Judd.. im blaming the recruitment as an ideologically detrimental strategy to the footy club overall.

Judd can still learn to run 2 ways as should everybody else in the team.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.