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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:16 am 
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formerly cj69

Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 am
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99prelim wrote:

And FFS, can some people stop blaming MM.

His errors this year have been cosmetic (3 rucks, Yarran sub, no Laidler, yada yada) For 2013, I'll cut him some slack and defer to his experience as to why he made those choices.

Our structural problems (and they've been discussed) existed well before MM.


Agree!

I seriously believe that a number of players are really struggling playing a disciplined, finals style of footy.

Most of them have only known the get it and run method. Worked when we had space and against lesser teams but MM is trying to bring in a more structured game style.

Simply, its exposing some players and they can't handle it.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:26 am 
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Bruce Doull
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ThePsychologist wrote:
Synbad wrote:
If you were building a list to win a flag...... there are very few players youd want from our list... lets not use small forwards theyre the cherry on the cae not the cake.. lets talk cake...
Right now..

Henderson
Walker
Kreuzer
Gibbs
Tuohy
Murphy*
Simpson
Cachia*
Jamieson*
McKiness*
Bootsma*

Thats 9 guys from a list of over 40 who are those players.. or can be those players...from our list of 43 or so.. when you need THIRTY


I wouldn't include Jamison or Cachia.

Add to that Graham & hopefully Menzel and given our list I'd keep OKeefe.



We havent seen Graham and Menzel.. and Okeefe is in his 6th year for 2 half games.
Cachia was good again but needs to impact the scoreboard
Jamo is better than Zac Dawson and theyre going to finish top 3
But to make everyone look better you need players capable of running both ways

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:30 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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club29 wrote:
Synbad wrote:
Judd is hopeless
Murphy is timid
Carrazzo is hopeless
New rules have rendered Robbo useless
Brock is slow and has a pop gun kick.
After that who have we go to shape up against the better cliubs midfields???

Keep in mind the midfield is old or getting old!


However we have no worries about half back flankers... even if we delist 6 this year... ontop of a few from last year .... no worries...!!!

Now THAT is what i call recruitment and list management...

So next year....
Carrazzo 30
Simpson 30
Judd 30/31
Scotland 34
McLean 28/29

Baasically we need 4 just to replace these guys.... forget about adding to them...

Scary isnt it?


Agree. But you forgot Mick Malthouse old and hopeless.

How we went into this season with this list I will never know. Still we might make the finals "if the stars align".


The question should be 'why' not 'how'.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:43 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Synbad wrote:
The biggest thing all this shows us all is how team management was in the wrong hands for so long.

Terrible list management and recruitment.

The game was changing and we were chasing the wrong players.

It only can mean one thing.

We didnt understand the changes in the games and its trending.

!@#$%& pathetic!!!

Its a waste of years!!!


I don't think it's as simple as recruiting for another era, although that's part of it. There seems to have been so much 'wrong thinking' that it's hard to keep track. Each decision affects the next so that everything snowballs. It has been ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:44 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
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Molly wrote:
We have a go at the side for not flying the flag for Murphy... and that is a valid point.

But when the hell is Murphy going to fly the flag for himself?????


Agree completely. His effort in the last that lead to a goal (Gibbs did him no favours) was embarrassing, just got pushed off the ball to easily.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:46 am 
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Serge Silvagni

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:12 pm
Posts: 942
redback wrote:
Bigredisback wrote:
redback wrote:
Bigredisback wrote:
redback wrote:
It's funny how you guys only understand an issue when someone else has a different point of view. :lol:

The only thing that can't be changed in a week or month in a football organisation is skill level, and that can be improved vastly with intense training and commitment.

Nope sorry culture doesn't work that way

Otherwise organisations like leading teams wouldn't have a business if one day fix


How long to demand accountability and responsibility?

Demand them now and those who don't fall into line will be moved on


So in essence you are agreeing with me?

What discipline has he demanded up to date?

How do you turn a losing culture into a winning one without accountability and responsibility?

How long do you need to demand standards?

You set the parameters and over time weed them out

We will see dramatic list changes at years end


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:22 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Bigredisback wrote:
redback wrote:
So in essence you are agreeing with me?

What discipline has he demanded up to date?

How do you turn a losing culture into a winning one without accountability and responsibility?

How long do you need to demand standards?

You set the parameters and over time weed them out

We will see dramatic list changes at years end


No doubt but that is not the point, he has failed up to date in every essence of this pivotal change over year.

From an experienced coach his decisions and leadership have been quite clumsy and uninspiring.
He hasn’t taken the club forward in any basic fundamental area that he should from a supporters point of view.
He has failed to inspire his players, he has failed to discipline his players, he has failed to take responsibility for his decisions and he has failed to increase his players thirst for success and mental strength as a good coach should.
Next year is a different point of reference.

I wasn’t a huge fan of Rattens and it looks like we botched another leadership decision to make up for the last one.
At least this had the making of a half decent one but alas MM was more hype that bite.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:24 am 
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Robert Walls
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Location: Steven Seagal's Martial Arts Academy
Fremantle calls security to quieten down angry Carlton fans

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/fremantle-calls-security-to-quieten-down-angry-carlton-fans/story-fndv8f7j-1226690796589

:roll: :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:39 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Bluey44 wrote:


why dont they just castrate us and then be done with it?

footy is crap!!!


they control the crowd the way they control the game... its all artificial

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:43 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Bluey44 wrote:


That was disgraceful! The AFL and Etihad can go flower themselves. Seriously what have we become when this occurs.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:54 am 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
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Location: Nth Fitzroy
Bigredisback wrote:
club29 wrote:
Why do people want Levi in ? We never win when he plays. He is a liability and needs to take 10 marks and kick 3 just to break even and make up for the fact he wont be sighted in the second half and will be walked around by opposition.

I am not saying Rowe is any good but at least we win games when he plays and at least he can kick a drop punt.

Perhaps Watson is the answer as a second forward. He surprised last night.

Cazbolt can get the ball roewe can't so atlesst lets pick someone who can get it


Roewe was playing on bloody dufield most of the night and couldn't take a grab

Watson agree


Don't agree re casboult. We just don't win when he plays. We are man down. We can be blinded by two massive pack splitting marks up the wings in the first quarter or we can take a look at him over 120mins. It is costly playing him.
Rowe has more of a dig. Runs more, tackles more, marks less, kicks better. Both ordinary but I would have Rowe ahead of Casboult this year.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:55 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Warning -this is a roast.

We got pumped because there were a few squibs on the ground last night, and I'll name them.

Chris Yarran - number one squib. Actually squibbed a whole contest. His tackles were squib like, too.
Marc Murphy - Oh our great and glorious leader actually squibbed most of the entire game. If his jaw is at a stage where he's wondering more about whether it will look bruised in the mirror than making an impact on a game as the captain, he should simply sit out until he feels up to it. His predecessor was the only midfielder who showed everyone how it's meant to be done.
Eddie Betts - Has done very little all year. Hard to get stuck into a guy who has been great for so long, but if you aren't performing week in week out, you're a liability.

We flitter between okay and pontificating as a bunch of pretty boys led by Murphy and Carrazzo and the fact that these were the two leading candidates over a guy like Kade Simpson who sacrifices his own sense of physical health in every single thing he does, speaks exactly why we are at where we are.

There's a fair degree amount of shizen hausen but because there's more than one who can't actually detect the smell of it, we don't improve.

Simpson, Walker, Jamo, Henderson, Kreuzer, Judd, Touhy and others who actually do their absolute darndest each week must wonder why the f--- their team mates further up the field put in about 30% of the effort they put in at the back line.

Being under siege as much as we were is entirely the reason we got pantsed tonight, should have lost to North, and got smacked by any other team who beat us prior to that.

Now after that roast it's about time for my Sunday lamb variety to be carved, and I'm tipping it'll be a bit tougher than some of the marshmallows that were served up last night.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:56 am 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9105
Location: Nth Fitzroy
Bigredisback wrote:
club29 wrote:
Synbad wrote:
Judd is hopeless
Murphy is timid
Carrazzo is hopeless
New rules have rendered Robbo useless
Brock is slow and has a pop gun kick.
After that who have we go to shape up against the better cliubs midfields???

Keep in mind the midfield is old or getting old!


However we have no worries about half back flankers... even if we delist 6 this year... ontop of a few from last year .... no worries...!!!

Now THAT is what i call recruitment and list management...

So next year....
Carrazzo 30
Simpson 30
Judd 30/31
Scotland 34
McLean 28/29

Baasically we need 4 just to replace these guys.... forget about adding to them...

Scary isnt it?


Agree. But you forgot Mick Malthouse old and hopeless.

How we went into this season with this list I will never know. Still we might make the finals "if the stars align".


U can thank ratten and McKay for the list mate


...and Malthouse too mate.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:20 pm
Posts: 1824
Bigredisback wrote:
Rexy wrote:
Simmo is a marvel the way he goes about it up against the physical freaks he's up against.

This season will take it's toll on him though.

Simmo excellent second half of year

First half was very poor


Last month best footy of his career


I agree with this and that shows his character.
Was terrible early but has fought his way back, unlike some of his peers who have been terrible all
year and just got worse as the season progressed. Im very happy to have been wrong on Simmo early.

The flip side to that is a few of the guys who were very good early such as Walker, Jammo and Jeffy
have lost all form over the last 4-6 weeks.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:11 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25158
Location: Bondi Beach
Headcutter wrote:
Rob's Rant

Blues tried very hard but just not good enough.
I can't fault the endeavour but the execution is simply not there.

If I can make a small suggestion (for the 1 millionth time)......... STOP PLAYING THE 3 SMALL FORWARDS IN THE SAME TEAM - IT WILL NEVER WORK ON A CONSISTENT BASIS ESPECIALLY AGAINST A QUALITY OPPOSITION. Not only does it fail 8 out of 10 times but it means that we are playing effectively 1 or 2 players down because we are have 3 of essentially the same player who cant really have an impact anywhere else on the ground.

*** Team Selection - A howler at the selection table this week -
- The decision to play Rowe was a shocker. If ever there was a time to play your 6'11 ruckman -Warnock tonight was the night. Asking Rowe to pinch hit against Sandilands and Smith is fanciful. Kreuzer struggled let alone a 4th string ruckman like Rowe. Warnock doesnt get much of the ball around the ground but neither does Rowe, and warnock would have been useful winning a few taps.
- What does Graham need to do to get a game??? Another BOG last week for NB and still we select Robinson and our 1 too many taggers/defensive minded mids ahead of him - Cacchia, Curnow, Armfield, et al. (Curnow was excellent last week and the others were fair but for team balance we needed ball winning ability and Graham would have provided that.

** Mitch Robinson - How can I say this nicely?????? Actually I can't.... your effort is great but you are the absolute turnover king and your presence in the team is actually a disadvantage. Sorry to say it but your in your 5 season and in reality you are unlikely to improve significantly so I think its time we looked to relocate you either to a different club or the Northern Blues. (Wow I managed to say that without a single swear word!)

** Gibbs - I have defended you for 5 years and I still rate you in our top 6 but at times your hunger for the contest and want for the ball is embarrassing. I realise you probably have a laconic nature but please at least try and look like you give a shit!! It makes it a little less painful for your teammates and fans.

** Rowe - Great story of triumph over adversity but not much else to say. Given that Rowe, Betts, Garlett and Yarran between them have about 35 touches a game it makes it pretty hard to win when 2/3 of the fwd line hardly have an impact. I hope Mitchell gets a shot next week but I highly doubt it.

** Kicking - Need I say more......

** Tackling - We seem to miss crucial tackles every week. Is it technique or lack of strength or lack of composure.

Believe it or not I am not devastated after the loss because the team tried hard but I am incredibly frustrated because it just reinforces how far away we are from being a true finals side let alone a real contender. We still cant beat good sides yet we show a few glimpses that deceive you into thinking that just maybe we aren't that far away.
I eagerly await the end of season so we can see what changes Mick has install for us. Swann said 12 changes and i hope that means some serious changes not just the permenant reserves palyers like Joseph, Davies etc... We need to somehow improve the list and it will be interesting to see whether MM wants to do that primarily through trades or the draft. We must be savage because we arent going anywhere and unfortuantely father time has seen the demise of Judd and Scotland so there will be 2 gaping holes in the midfield and HB line


IMO there is minimal improvement possible in several of our players, that doesnt mean we g



I've read the above posts and agree with nearly all. But THIS post...close to my heart. :thumbsup:

I'll leave it to the Razor Gang come years end.
Note: We need to tackle like them. They are the bench mark.
They always seemed to get a grab of the jumper of the Carlton player trying to dodge them. We CAN'T tackle!!!
WE need coaches who can help teach our players how to make tackles stick.....more effort would be a start.

I can't blame the coach or previous coaches for Walkers output last night. Terrible. Skinny. Slow. Unsafe as a defender. Did no attacking.

Betts...even Yarran...same.

Warnock should have played against Sandilands. HUGE mistake by coach and MC. Huge.

We need better forwards than we have, so lets not think about Mitchell. He's slower. Give Rowe a miss.

SIMMO :clap:

WATTO :clap:

TUOHY :clap:

KREUZER :clap:

Hendo, Brock, Gibbs, Army and Scotto...thanls for your output and effort...to a lesser extent Garlett.

Murphy should give back the captaincy at the end of the season...I'm fair dinkum.
Simmo is the man but he could last only 1 week the way he goes in...a good lesson for the clumsy Robbo.

Mick and Marc have a lot ahead of them.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:20 pm
Posts: 1824
ThePsychologist wrote:
Synbad wrote:
If you were building a list to win a flag...... there are very few players youd want from our list... lets not use small forwards theyre the cherry on the cae not the cake.. lets talk cake...
Right now..

Henderson
Walker
Kreuzer
Gibbs
Tuohy
Murphy*
Simpson
Cachia*
Jamieson*
McKiness*
Bootsma*

Thats 9 guys from a list of over 40 who are those players.. or can be those players...from our list of 43 or so.. when you need THIRTY


I wouldn't include Jamison or Cachia.

Add to that Graham & hopefully Menzel and given our list I'd keep OKeefe.


Cachia I would include. He has done enough in this first 15 games of AFL footy.
He offers a similar level of toughness that Robbo offers without going to ground at every opportunity and has far more poise.
In my books he is now ahead of Robbo and Carrots in the pecking order. Carrots has never been my favourite with his poor skills and
his butchering of the ball.It appears his body is now also catching up with him.I can only see a steep decline from here.

Jammo was good early but has been found out a little in the last 6 weeks. Having said that, I still think he stays. We need his bigger body down back with the absence of a second and third established tall defender.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:17 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:18 am
Posts: 1321
Location: Melbourne
ThePsychologist wrote:
99prelim wrote:

And FFS, can some people stop blaming MM.

His errors this year have been cosmetic (3 rucks, Yarran sub, no Laidler, yada yada) For 2013, I'll cut him some slack and defer to his experience as to why he made those choices.

Our structural problems (and they've been discussed) existed well before MM.


Why does MM escape scrutiny? The St Kilda game was lost due to his dumb selections. What crime has Laidler commited to be overlooked all year where other clubs are now circling to get him? Why haven't 18 more games been put into players like Bell and Casboult who are rough around the edges but are tough and hard and worth persisting with more than Curnow/ Cachia or Rowe.

Why hasn't Graham been promoted?

Walker had his best season as a fowrard and Yarran as a backman, so why turn thier positions around? We play 4 small forwards not 3, people keep forgetting Armfield who for some reason gets a another contract, just as Warnock got a 3 year contract last year.

Why play Simpson back and rob us of his drive forward from centre, why is Gibbs suddenly play back again when he was starting to do well in the midfield?

There's so much I see MM doing wrong and I keep thinking he's trying to do the right thing and harden this team up but at what expense, who appart from Toughy and Henderson have improved this year?

And what of the expected clean out at the end of the year, is he going to move on our talented players and keep the duds with heart? I agree there are at least 10 players that need to be moved on, problem is they may differ from Mighty Mick's, for the sake of our club moving UP the ladder he better bloody well get it right!!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:27 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9105
Location: Nth Fitzroy
Murphy has had an interrupted two years. Shoulder, face, knee and groins. Has had very limited pre season last two seasons. This is why his form is rubbish. He is trying to be a leader and playing on anyway but his body is not letting him. He is best sitting it out and getting set for next year. In 2011 form he can build himself into a good leader but while he is down and out and doubting himself he is no good to at all as a leader.

We know he can play. Lets get him right.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am
Posts: 2125
Who said the fish rots from the head? Buy that poster a beer because they are absolutely right. We are barely better than last year and with far fewer injury excuses. MM is a good coach but he was brought in for a good time not a long time, and yet we are a long way from a flag, further than we have been in my lifetime. THe committee promised great instant improvement, wrong again. How many wrong decisions do the committee have to make before we change the committee?

Being typically Carlton we will pay well over fo a free agent who is disappointing and will seize Richmond's mantle of ninthton. Look at what Ross Lyon has done to see what a coach can bring to a club. He has taken a modestly talented rabble straight to winning fianls (ag the previous years premier) and has them in great stead again. Go through both sides and give a rating to each player for talent, we'd be clearly ahead, but on the field we are ordinary, not every player but enough to make the difference.

Look at how a battler like Mzungi puts himself in, look at a VFL reject like Barlow. Then look at equisite talents like Yarran and Gibbs, great skill but never going to drag the team over the line in a tough game. Brock Mclean has been okay, but other clubs never worry about curbing him. Fyfe was still available for the pick we gave away for MCLean so were Talia and a range of talents. Maybe we wouldn't have got them, but if you give away high picks for honest triers you don't get the option. Our drafting appears to have been outside players with pure skill, but in a tight game would you rather have Zeibel or Yarran? Eddie Betts has been great in previous seasons but is in terrible form. $600k! At least his manager has a sense of humour. And don't imagine we are going to swap players we don't want for great players from other clubs. You have to give quality to get quality and we almost always lose on trades. Our only real bait are the two superfluous rucks who should at least allow us to upgrade a first rounder.

We probably won't go ahead of the sides above us next year, and North, Adelaide GC, WCE and maybe even Brisbane will be as good or better than us. We are in the mediocre millenium, mediocre comittee, CEO, drafting, players.....that light is a long way down the tunnel


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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I cringe watching Marc Murphy as Captain. He is a very good footballer when fit and firing, but he offers nothing as a Captain and makes everyone else shrink around him. It's embarrassing when the Captain is ridiculed and pushed around by opposition players because of weak efforts.

I hope he is given the opportunity and means to graciously move aside at the end of the year. Doubt that will happen though.

Simmo over recent weeks is what being a Captain is all about.


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