It's all a moot point Synbad, how could any coach succeed at carlton with the current president and board?

There's so much wrong with the club and you think changing a coach can fix it all!

Mick has 65 H&A games ahead of him, that's at least 1/4 of the list to be turned over, what I call a perfect opportunity for Mick to mould a group that wins us a Premiership.

I want success as quick as anyone, but understand change takes time, particularly when the cattle has been conditioned to 5yrs of a different culture.

..he's got a bit under 3 years.. ..unless we trade/buy in a good, experienced KPF, or a KPD, or preferably both,, we're more than 3 years away from getting the flag worthy spine.. ..the continual denial of this fact is concerning, our on-ball brigade is too far ahead of our kpps, in regards to years/experience and also quality.. ..and year after year of ignoring this problem at the recruiting table hasn't helped one bit..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Bloody good point.

At a minimum, it's 9 players gone.

Judd, Scotland, Waite, Duigan, possibly Simpson and Carrazzo too. There's 6 I can't see playing at that age.

You have Menzel, Buckley, Lucas, Watson, Rowe, Temay, Bootsma, McCarthy, Mitchell, McInnes, Davies, Graham, Casboult, McLean, White, Joseph and Ellard yet to prove enough that they're good enough to be on the list in 3 years time.

That's potentially 23 players who would be forced list changes before you get into the changes that are proactive.

Can we pull one over a Melbourne or North and trade off an ageing Walker/Robinson, an inconsistent Yarran/Garlett, or the spare ruck in Hampson/Warnock, if we've got so many question marks on the rest of the list?

If not - is the quality of the players coming in going to be better than the quality going out? Can we afford to finish low enough to get these better draft picks, with club finances and membership still an issue? Can we afford to pay a coach 7 figures a year to deliberately lose?

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BLUES 2010: PAV AND JUDD = FLAGS. DOING IT FOR THE LOVE OF DICK PRATT.

HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR TALKINGCARLTON SUPERCOACH 2009 YET?

This is not true .

You can never say you can't win flags because of not having a super spine. Yes, it's often the case that good KPP depth helps you win flags but I think with the thinning of talent that is occurring you won't get it all.

Hawks don't have a backline KPD's, Sydney have one KPF and one KPD, the Pies in 2010 didn't have great KPD's and they had one KPF.

The saints teams of 09 and 10 had Zac Dawson as their main KPD and relied on Kozi and Nick.

This year Freo will finish higher than the Eagles but have a look at the wealth of KP talent the Eagles have, whereas the Dockers are relying on Luke McFarlane and a rickety Pav.

Geelong have had good options back and front.

Our backline has excellent options currently we just need a good to very good forward who can mark and kick. Not many Trav Clokes around but Sydney managed without one.

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I hope Essendon* folds.

I think we did try to correct this problem in the 2010 draft. We took 3 KKP players in Watson, McCarthy and Mitchell. Unfortunately, i am not sure if all, or any , of these will still be at the club in 2-3 years time. More of an indication of some ordinary recruiting over the past years. Sadly the recuiter is one of the most important people at a club and ours was not up to scratch.

You raise some very good points. I think we will be very active this pre season in terms of trading. Hopefully we can clear out the list and be in a position to snare a free agent.

I agree we'll be active - the issue is for what reasons?

Are we acting because the list is rubbish and can't/won't play Mick's gameplan so we bring in the types Melbourne traded this year?
Or are we trading to be proactive, be aggressive and build a list to win a flag in these 3 years?

If it's the former, then we've picked the wrong bloke at the wrong time.

The latter is just uncharacteristic. We don't trade our players to advantage, or initiate risky trades. We use it out of necessity (i.e Jacobs, Fevola, Judd), or when some bloke played a great game against us 5 years ago is available for a fourth rounder.

My unpopular opinion on the matter, is that if we're going down the second path, 2 out of Kreuzer, Walker and Robinson have to go unfortunately. Not as a reflection of their ability as a footballer, but rather their value on the market vs. how well we can cover their loss on-field.

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BLUES 2010: PAV AND JUDD = FLAGS. DOING IT FOR THE LOVE OF DICK PRATT.

HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR TALKINGCARLTON SUPERCOACH 2009 YET?

..Krooz is by far too important to the team, for mine he's one of the few 'untradeables'..

..in regards to requiring good KPPs for a flag worthy spine, yes it's still important.. ..you may not need elite spine, but they need to be above average, and resilient.. ..you can have the odd role player, gap filler but not the whole spine.. ..and not a different spine year in, year out.. ..and they need to be bonafide position players, not different positional players forced into the spine to fill a need, as we do..

Rucks - Krooz, Knockers, Hampson
KPFs - Waite, Casboult, Rowe, Mitchell, HENDO
KPDs - Jamo, Watson, McInnes, McCarthy, [maybe White], HENDO

..aside from Rucks, our KPPs fwd and back are thin, despite the actual numbers.. ..Jamo is proven, but fragile.. ..ditto Waite, who's also old.. ..other than Hendo, there's definate question marks on the others being able to do more play a season or two.. ..and even if they prove reliable year in and year out, they're still 'kids' in terms of development and experience.. ..hence why we're still a few years away.. ..ignoring our need to draft KPPs until we're forced to, has our list balance totally out of whack..

..we still think we caqn just buy in what we need - e.g Knockers, shopping for KPFs..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Well with free agency it's easier to buy in what you need than any time since 1986.

I agree with this. Although I guess in the club's defence, we did draft Kennedy who'd be pretty handy right now (I wonder whether we needed to play tougher in the Judd trade). Also we did get in Hendo. I can see why Ratts moved Hendo back to try and win a few extra games. But from a list point of view, we really need Hendo developing as a KPF.

Mick and Carlton should go after Dixon from GC big time.. What we lack

I think we just need more foot soldiers, 6ft runners who play a role. Geelong, Collingwood and Sydney have a flowing stock of these types.

Our team is built on attacking players and a group of run with, half back flankers who are limited in what they offer us.

Graham and Temay are the types we need more of coming through.

Look back at the draft threads. Most of the posters here were saying we needed more midfielders.

The idea of rebuilding is farcical. We had the opportunity to start this year and did Jack shit. In fact, Malthouse said he was happy with our list as it was. Suddenly after one poor performance, people want to rebuild.
Lets try playing to our strengths, keep a healthy list and the results will come. Age wise, our list is just starting to get to its ideal window.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Most of the list cloggers were under contract, otherwise I'm sure we would've seen more casualties.

We were hamstrung last year with so few vacant spots on our list. A result of poor list management. This year should be a different story, i am sure we will go after a free agent.

Each list clogger is open to interpretation.
We either have young promising players that will or not prove their worth over the next year or so or we have the the fringe player who can come in and do a servicable job but will not always cement a senior position, just like every other club.
I agree with BV and MM we have a good mix of players that are there and the rest that can add to the team.
All that is needed is some luck, some good management and for MM to earn his money use experiece and knowledge to gel the team and make them play to the best of their abilities.
If not we have wasted a lot of money and gone further back than when were penalised and fined.
That would be sad but a rea lpossibility if Malthouse doesn't bring us the 17th in the next 3 years.

A flag would be nice, but I won't ever fall into the trap of thinking a coach is good or bad based on premierships wins. All they can do is improve your chances.

Too many variables. Lethal takes the job at Carlton instead of Pagan, how many flags would he have won.?

Lyon taking that very, very ordinary Saints side to two (or three) GF's was a fantastic performance. I reckon Freo will finish top two this year but will they be good enough to beat Collingwood, Sydney, Cats in a GF ? Tough call i reckon they would spank the Hawks.
MM taking the Pies to two GF's against Brisbane was a great effort, his best to date if you ask me, considering many over here think the WCE should have won 3 or 4 flags under him.

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I hope Essendon* folds.

Who are these list cloggers?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Joseph, Collins, Davies, Curnow aren't taking us anywhere.