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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Goltzenberg wrote:
So we put out the under new management sign? and everyone will join up at members. Winning actually brings members. When you are losing there will be lots of empty seats. Changing the captaincy will not bring in new members. Judd is the marquee player, the face of carlton. When you think of Carlton, you think of Judd. You think of him as a leader and he will be the leader for the next couple years. The players look up to him and respect him.


Discussing attracting new members is a luxury, perhaps bordering on a pipe dream by the end of the year. I'm talking about retaining those that signed on this year.

There is not so much a correlation between winning games and attracting members, as there is losing games and losing members. Port Adelaide or North Melbourne were successful once in the past decade, and never had huge member numbers. Turning things around on-field isn't going to draw big numbers in. It will stem the bleeding.

Judd is the face of Carlton. What's the plan for two years time when he calls it a day? Both on-field and member-wise? Murph and Gibbs already are popular with the kids. Why not increase the profile of Simmo or Jamo or Carrots also, in the eyes of the young or casual member?

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Putting a Carrazo or Simpson at the front will be like Julia Gillard running the labour party, when you know Ruddy should be leading.


Flat out disrespectful to Carrazzo and Simmo. Not even going to bother.

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Seeing your responses are around cashflow, marketing blah blah. You bring a player back to the club like Fev and watch the sponsors jump on as you know there will be a million blockbuster games and there will be cinderella story around it all. Like Cousins going back to Richmond. It was a media storm. Sponsors love it as long as the player doesn't go off the rails again.


We had Fev. Sponsors didn't exactly exit in droves or join you down Royal Pde, now, did they? Also - feel free to paw over Richmond's annual reports and see if you can find a cause and effect between the recruitment of Ben Cousins and money. I expect maybe a small increase in membership over one year at best. We already have the best draw in the league in terms of visibility on television. The trick is to retain that long term. Recruiting a 31 year old who arguably doesn't have another season in them, isn't the answer to sustaining blockbusters and avoiding the Sunday twilight spot.

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Only way you can promote your under new management campagin is to get a proven coach like Malthouse, but if you want cashflow, then you will be paying over a mill a season to get him and how many members do you need to make over a mill?


Malthouse has nothing to do with this, whether he coaches or not. I'm baffled by how you came to this conclusion.

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I dont really care about members, cashflow, l want wins. When your winning, everything else is flourishing.


Not....quite....

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Goltzenberg wrote:
I dont really care about members, cashflow, l want wins. When your winning, everything else is flourishing.



Image

Oh haaiiiiii there guys. Just thought I'd pop in here to say I totally agree with Mr Goltzenberg. Winning is much important than having a healthy balance sheet and things travelling well off field. We are living proof of that - the winningest club in Scotland and nothing could be better.

Love and kisses
Craig Whyte.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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They should have signed Fev when they had the chance..

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Trevor Keogh
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I'm not saying Judd shouldn't be captain but I think Carrots is terrific ... and captain material.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:32 am 
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Craig Bradley
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http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/expert- ... 6434829815

Yeah, nah, not Murphy..

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:02 am 
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Serge Silvagni
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zoneman wrote:
I'm not saying Judd shouldn't be captain but I think Carrots is terrific ... and captain material.

+1

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:10 am 
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Ken Hunter
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The Rhino wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/expert-opinion/time-right-for-chris-judd-to-hand-carlton-captaincy-to-marc-murphy/story-fncqi979-1226434829815

Yeah, nah, not Murphy..


"Expert Opinion"

"Mark Stevens"

Enough said!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:32 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Goltzenberg wrote:
fraser murphy wrote:
Goltzenberg appears to abhor change. Suffering ensues.

BS

I don't care if you change the coach, just get the right one. I don't think Malthouse should be handed the coaching reigns without working for it. Unless you fix the personnel first and get established key forwards, coaching won't change the results.

I'm happy for to trade some of our better players to get key forward, which we are in desperate need.

As for Captain, there is no reason to change it. Changing the captaincy to Simmo or Carrazzo? WTF. Wasn't Simmo our wooden spoon captain back in the day who gave it up to Judd, now we give it back. Lets go backwards. Only Captains in the wake are Gibbs and Murphy, but they are a couple years off. It would never goto Simmo or Carrots now.

Wasn't Judd a AFL Premiership Captain/Player 2006??

Let me give you the dialogue
Ratts 'Hey juddy, you have to step down as captain'
Juddy 'WTF, why?'
Ratts 'Well l was reading the talking carlton threads and apparently we should change it to Simmo or Carrots, for the sake of changing it, they must be better leaders then you'
Juddy 'Who are these morons, im a premiership captain!!. Weren't we 3 points away from a prelim final last season?'
Ratts 'Yeah but the tribe have spoken on talking carlton, doesn't make sense, doesn't have logic, but these are our fans'
Juddy 'Flogs, can't wait for free agency, no respect'

Enough said.


Or alternatively ...

Ratts: "Juddy, how would you feel about stepping down from the captaincy?
Judd:"How would I feel? Don't you %$^#$^ listen??? I've been telling you for years that I don't want this job!! Free me from the captaincy and I'll go out and win another Brownlow for you."
Ratts: "Ok".

I figure one baseless speculation is as good as another. :smile:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Adrian Gallagher

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The Rhino wrote:
Seems strange that amongst all the clambering for Ratts to go, that the position of captain remains largely without discussion on here.

Surely the removal of the on-field leader is as beneficial as removing one of ten coaches?

From my perspective - I think Judd offers very little to the role unless he's able to lead by example and haul in huge numbers/win the game off his own boot. Whilst the term "reluctant president" is often thrown about erroneously, I think Judd is a reluctant captain. Seldom seen giving the big rev up at the 3/4 time huddle, or giving a player a bake when they need to lift, it's not his style. On the other hand, the appraisals of his leadership from when he first came to the club, the setting standards toward professionalism, etc. appear in hindsight to be more of a reflection of where we were coming from, rather than any overnight revolution. "I now don't eat the skin off my chicken" seems a bit silly in hindsight. Then again, If rumour is to be believed, he may still be responsible for the best bit of leadership shown by the club in close to a generation, in taking a stand against retaining Brendan Fevola.

With the great man at the end of his contract next season, and every chance he decides to walk away from it, I think its a fair question to ask, whether in the pursuit of the premiership, whether we lost sight of the bigger picture, and should have had Juddy abdicate the captaincy at the start of this season to prepare the next group of leaders?

Carrazzo, Simpson and Jamison represent some very good options. Even all three at once offers merit, if only for its step away from traditional-Carlton thinking. Its hard to criticize the coaches box for a team not playing together, when the captain is happy to do his own thing on the field. Its a step forward in addressing a pressing issue: galvanizing a side of individuals, that can still be resolved before the end of the year no less.

A lot of the arguments toward Ratten stepping down here, are no different with Judd. "If Brett Ratten Chris Judd truly cares about the club/is a true Carlton person/wants to earn his salary/another ridiculous statement, then he'd step down straight away, and do the right thing for the club".

From a public relations perspective, Judd fronting a media pack in the coming week, and announcing that he's dropping the captaincy, wanting to concentrate on his footy, obviously hasn't had the best of years, feels that by giving the captaincy away and being able to focus on his own game, he can best contribute to the club's fight for finals action in 2012, and let the next generation of Carlton leaders show what they have to offer in uniting the playing group as one for the challenge ahead is money. In one fell swoop:

* - The blame is lifted from Ratten and onus back onto the playing group to turn things around. At the very least - the focus is off him.
* - Disillusioned fans suddenly have something to look forward to at the remaining home games and turn up. Finals? New captain? Juddy's back?
* - You lift the profile and visibility of 1 to 3 of our players. Brand exposure.
* - Positive press. A theme and mental image of the team wanting to fight for their season rather than lay down.
* - You've already started the membership campaign for 2013. New blood. New leadership. One direction....with one direction repeated several million times into Google searches/Facebook. Watch our membership soar in the 10-14 year old female demographic in droves.

Plenty of positives to get out of changing the captain. Not so many going for the easy target in the coach..


Look Rhino, I do not know what managerial experience you have but let me summarise management 101 for you - the buck stops at the boss! Not the workers, not the cleaners, not the desk jockeys, it stops at the boss.

Ratts is 100% responsible for the performance of the player group, not Judd, not Murphy or Carrots or the leadership group or anyone else. Within the player group Ratts can and does appoint people to help him, like the captain, leadership groups, accountability etc. but ultimately his decisions & their respective showings reflect back on Ratts, not them.

My problem with Ratts is he does not take responsibility for the team’s performance and, like you, keeps pushing it back onto the playing group. He does not get it and given he has had so many years of ‘leading teams’ training I now believe Ratts just does not have the intellectual capacity to get it and hence take this group any further.

Maybe a more appropriate analogy for you is a poor workman always blames his tools!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:05 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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If that's the case - then wouldn't you look at Swann, Kernahan, and possibly McKay who all outrank him? Irrespective - it's irrelevant to whether there are positives to having a captaincy switch over (4 weeks ago I might add)....

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HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR TALKINGCARLTON SUPERCOACH 2009 YET?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Ken Hunter

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The Rhino wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/expert-opinion/time-right-for-chris-judd-to-hand-carlton-captaincy-to-marc-murphy/story-fncqi979-1226434829815

Yeah, nah, not Murphy..


..i've actually always thought he'd make a good captain.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Adrian Gallagher

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The Rhino wrote:
If that's the case - then wouldn't you look at Swann, Kernahan, and possibly McKay who all outrank him? Irrespective - it's irrelevant to whether there are positives to having a captaincy switch over (4 weeks ago I might add)....


Yep, you are right, Sticks and the board are ultimately responsible for Ratts’ performance and I think (& hope) they will act and Ratts will go.

Interestingly from listening to those guys the fellow that impresses me is McKay – he clearly states facts and gives reasons and is without the defensive stance of the others.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:43 pm 
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Rod McGregor

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Goltzenberg wrote:
As for Captain, there is no reason to change it. Changing the captaincy to Simmo or Carrazzo? WTF. Wasn't Simmo our wooden spoon captain back in the day who gave it up to Judd, now we give it back. Lets go backwards. Only Captains in the wake are Gibbs and Murphy, but they are a couple years off. It would never goto Simmo or Carrots now.

Wasn't Judd a AFL Premiership Captain/Player 2006??

Let me give you the dialogue
Ratts 'Hey juddy, you have to step down as captain'
Juddy 'WTF, why?'
Ratts 'Well l was reading the talking carlton threads and apparently we should change it to Simmo or Carrots, for the sake of changing it, they must be better leaders then you'
Juddy 'Who are these morons, im a premiership captain!!. Weren't we 3 points away from a prelim final last season?'
Ratts 'Yeah but the tribe have spoken on talking carlton, doesn't make sense, doesn't have logic, but these are our fans'
Juddy 'Flogs, can't wait for free agency, no respect'

Enough said.



You've got it all wrong.
No one should be telling Judd to step aside, It would have to come from Judd himself.
It has to be his gesture to the playing group, club and supporters - owned by him, and not enforced from above.


I think it makes a lot of sense for Judd to handover to Carrots or Laidler, for all the reasons Rhino has stated.
Both speak extremely well to the media and display onfield leadership.

I love Simpson to death, but he's more of a footsoldier than a captain. Keep it that way.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Rod McGregor

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Also Goltzenberg you have to remember how keen Judd has been to get the spotlight off him and toward other players over the years, especially surrounding the B&F. I think he was extremely relieved that Murphy (rightfully) won it last year.
He's not a selfish egotist.
I think the idea of a handover will appeal to him.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:47 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Murphy showed a ton of leadership the other night. It was refreshing to see him grab everyone up before the bounce and after the siren and say a few words.

That is leadership.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:48 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Goltzenberg wrote:
Whatever Rhino, you sound like Caroline Wilson bringing this thread up. Trying to spark a news article in the paper.

I'm done with this thread, its ridiculous to suggest a change of captaincy. Gibbs or Murphy will be captain in 2-3 years. Happy for you to call me on this then, but there is no way Judd will not be Captain in the coming years. There is no replacement for him at present.

Bye


You know it was coming... :lol:

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BLUES 2010: PAV AND JUDD = FLAGS. DOING IT FOR THE LOVE OF DICK PRATT.

HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR TALKINGCARLTON SUPERCOACH 2009 YET?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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You have to give credit where it is due.

Congratulations to Rhino.

:clap: :clap:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Not sure why it was considered out of bounds to even discuss it. Good work

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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The Rhino wrote:
Goltzenberg wrote:
Whatever Rhino, you sound like Caroline Wilson bringing this thread up. Trying to spark a news article in the paper.

I'm done with this thread, its ridiculous to suggest a change of captaincy. Gibbs or Murphy will be captain in 2-3 years. Happy for you to call me on this then, but there is no way Judd will not be Captain in the coming years. There is no replacement for him at present.

Bye


You know it was coming... :lol:


Expect to see Goltz down at Princes Park with the 'Save Captain Juddy' rally next weekend.

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