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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Posts: 10576
I posted this in another thread but thought I would do so in here as well, as I feel you deserve some kudos.

Dear J.Scarponi,
Your absolute support in Ratten & the team overral needs to be applauded.
While others like myself have totally lost confidence in everything Navy Blue, you sir are vigilent in your beliefs.
I will try and remember your fight in here in a few months time and if we are where you think we might be, then you sir deserve our respect and apologies.
Regards
SurreyBlue!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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aramari wrote:
Chapman has been my favourite player for a long time.



You never had a soft spot for Michael Mansfield then??? :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:49 am
Posts: 765
SurreyBlue wrote:
I posted this in another thread but thought I would do so in here as well, as I feel you deserve some kudos.

Dear J.Scarponi,
Your absolute support in Ratten & the team overral needs to be applauded.
While others like myself have totally lost confidence in everything Navy Blue, you sir are vigilent in your beliefs.
I will try and remember your fight in here in a few months time and if we are where you think we might be, then you sir deserve our respect and apologies.
Regards
SurreyBlue!


Thanks mate - for the Blues only my friend.

I'm a positive kind of loyal person that expects Ratten to keep his word, but also want to give him every opportunity to keep his word in spite this form slump.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:13 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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j.scarponi wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
I posted this in another thread but thought I would do so in here as well, as I feel you deserve some kudos.

Dear J.Scarponi,
Your absolute support in Ratten & the team overral needs to be applauded.
While others like myself have totally lost confidence in everything Navy Blue, you sir are vigilent in your beliefs.
I will try and remember your fight in here in a few months time and if we are where you think we might be, then you sir deserve our respect and apologies.
Regards
SurreyBlue!


Thanks mate - for the Blues only my friend.

I'm a positive kind of loyal person that expects Ratten to keep his word, but also want to give him every opportunity to keep his word in spite this form slump.




The White Star Line were given every opportunity to live up to their word as well. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:13 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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AGRO wrote:
aramari wrote:
Chapman has been my favourite player for a long time.



You never had a soft spot for Michael Mansfield then??? :wink:


Was there a beef between the two?

Ah for the days when my biggest Carlton issue was Mansfield's 9 iron kicks


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:37 am
Posts: 770
AGRO wrote:
We need to be the best not copy the best - I have heard to much crap from the Football Department about the "Geelong" model.



THIS

Last season it was copying everything the pies did, including recruiting anyone Collingwood, this year it is everything Geelong, from the training, late starts , resting players etc. Was so worried from this preseason it was gonna all come undone. If the eagles win this year, we can get worsfold and Teague back.

What do WE do well. What will win US a premiership.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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aramari wrote:
AGRO wrote:
aramari wrote:
Chapman has been my favourite player for a long time.



You never had a soft spot for Michael Mansfield then??? :wink:


Was there a beef between the two?

Ah for the days when my biggest Carlton issue was Mansfield's 9 iron kicks



Geelong drafted Paul Chapman with the pick (number 31) we gave them for Mansfield.


I always thought that Mansfield was more a "snap hooker" with his kicking rather than a lofted 9 iron.


There was certainly no better defender than Mansfield when he escorted a forward to the ball. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:33 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 4584
Location: Blisstonia.
aramari wrote:
AGRO wrote:
aramari wrote:
Chapman has been my favourite player for a long time.


Was there a beef between the two?

Ah for the days when my biggest Carlton issue was Mansfield's 9 iron kicks



Geelong drafted Paul Chapman with the pick (number 31) we gave them for Mansfield.


I always thought that Mansfield was more a "snap hooker" with his kicking rather than a lofted 9 iron.


There was certainly no better defender than Mansfield when he escorted a forward to the ball. :wink:


Rates up there with StKilda taking Barry Hall with the Craig Davenport pick.

At least it puts Mclean v Gysberts into a better light.

Thing you need to convince yourself with these scenarios is dont assume that we would have taken such players if we'd of kept those draft picks.

Some might argue that with ShaneO in charge, we would have blown the pick anyway, so there was no loss in trading them away. :razz:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:16 am 
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Vale 1953-2020
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I think that in the emotion of the past few days, some points have been lost. Just to be clear, I'm not laying the malaise at the feet of anyone in particular. But if you look at the whole situation logically and dispassionately, a few things stand out.

1. We have a draft in place that gives the bottom team first dibs at the best available talent.
2. If you're really down and out, you also get a priority pick.
3. There's a salary cap in place to ensure rich clubs don't have an unfair advantage.
4. Notwithstanding point 3, we (ie, Carlton) always seem to find a way to go beyond that anyway.

Now given all that, if everything else is equal, every club should theoretically rise to the top once every 16 years (now 18) and to the top 4 every 4 years or so. Now also, before you quote strangling draft penalties of 2002, just remember that they were
a) almost 10 years ago;
b) followed by a no.2, a no.4, and three no.1 draft picks; and
c) followed by fluking a top prospect with a no.45 draft pick (Simmo) and then later another one with a no.40 pick (Robbo).
So, the effect of the draft penalties has been well and truly offset by now.

The question then asks itself. Given all the equalisation that the AFL's social engineering has foisted upon the competition in terms of "cattle", and given that in that period, clubs like Sydney, Collingwood, and particularly WCE have truly prospered (and incidentally, managed to go down and then up again and win premierships, and play off in 8 GFs in the past 10 years); given all of that..........
THERE MUST BE SOMETHING AT PLAY BEYOND JUST HAVING THE AVAILABLE "CATTLE" !!!!!

If it were just about having the cattle, EVERY CLUB HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY. But how come St Kilda hasn't won 4 flags?? They had that many top 10 picks, it's not funny (Reiwoldt, Kosi, Clarke, Ball, etc). How come Melbourne has been a rabble for years?

The answer is, it takes more than just cattle. It takes a brilliant, top-class, professional organisation with a smart visionary leader whose job it is to lead and maintain a united board which can then
- employ a great CEO;
- search and select a good, innovative, flexible coach who has a blueprint for success;
- support a modern state-of-the-art football department which includes recruitment, development, coaching, selection, etc, and
- HOLD ALL OF THE ABOVE TO ACCOUNT for results.

For anyone who doesn't like the words "culture" and "environnment", the above is what I have meant by those words. Call it "footy club ethos" or call it "billbraxton" for all I care, but FFS, stop talking about injuries and stoppages and "if we can just get a CHF". None of them will make any difference!

Now, how do we accomplish this? I don't actually know. I'm not the one. But don't have a go at me for just talking. Our biggest problem is that this is not acknowledged, and IMO, until it is, we will continue to be a rabble, a laughing stock, and ultimately an irrelevancy like North Melbourne and Melbourne...... and, god forbid, Fitzroy!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:25 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:32 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 21541
Location: North of the border
That is fine if you knew the cattle were selecting was actually the top cattle - where the draft and system falls down is the age at which we get that cattle -

we look at kids when they are 16 -18 and say this guy is going to deliver us a flag in 10 years time when he is 26 -

I think the problem with the system is they are to young and the list are to small - there should be 50 -60 players on the list so that you can leave the stragglers longer to develop

so there has been a few things at play
1. did we select the right cattle
2. did we feed the cattle the right food
3 have we given the cattle long enough to mature

It would be wonderful if the number 1 pick became the best player and no 2 the second best and so on but it doesn't work that way

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:36 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Posts: 4426
moshe25 wrote:
I think that in the emotion of the past few days, some points have been lost. Just to be clear, I'm not laying the malaise at the feet of anyone in particular. But if you look at the whole situation logically and dispassionately, a few things stand out.

1. We have a draft in place that gives the bottom team first dibs at the best available talent.
2. If you're really down and out, you also get a priority pick.
3. There's a salary cap in place to ensure rich clubs don't have an unfair advantage.
4. Notwithstanding point 3, we (ie, Carlton) always seem to find a way to go beyond that anyway.

Now given all that, if everything else is equal, every club should theoretically rise to the top once every 16 years (now 18) and to the top 4 every 4 years or so. Now also, before you quote strangling draft penalties of 2002, just remember that they were
a) almost 10 years ago;
b) followed by a no.2, a no.4, and three no.1 draft picks; and
c) followed by fluking a top prospect with a no.45 draft pick (Simmo) and then later another one with a no.40 pick (Robbo).
So, the effect of the draft penalties has been well and truly offset by now.

The question then asks itself. Given all the equalisation that the AFL's social engineering has foisted upon the competition in terms of "cattle", and given that in that period, clubs like Sydney, Collingwood, and particularly WCE have truly prospered (and incidentally, managed to go down and then up again and win premierships, and play off in 8 GFs in the past 10 years); given all of that..........
THERE MUST BE SOMETHING AT PLAY BEYOND JUST HAVING THE AVAILABLE "CATTLE" !!!!!

If it were just about having the cattle, EVERY CLUB HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY. But how come St Kilda hasn't won 4 flags?? They had that many top 10 picks, it's not funny (Reiwoldt, Kosi, Clarke, Ball, etc). How come Melbourne has been a rabble for years?

The answer is, it takes more than just cattle. It takes a brilliant, top-class, professional organisation with a smart visionary leader whose job it is to lead and maintain a united board which can then
- employ a great CEO;
- search and select a good, innovative, flexible coach who has a blueprint for success;
- support a modern state-of-the-art football department which includes recruitment, development, coaching, selection, etc, and
- HOLD ALL OF THE ABOVE TO ACCOUNT for results.

For anyone who doesn't like the words "culture" and "environnment", the above is what I have meant by those words. Call it "footy club ethos" or call it "billbraxton" for all I care, but FFS, stop talking about injuries and stoppages and "if we can just get a CHF". None of them will make any difference!

Now, how do we accomplish this? I don't actually know. I'm not the one. But don't have a go at me for just talking. Our biggest problem is that this is not acknowledged, and IMO, until it is, we will continue to be a rabble, a laughing stock, and ultimately an irrelevancy like North Melbourne and Melbourne...... and, god forbid, Fitzroy!

Yeah yeah but what about the crushing injuries goddamit!!!!! :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:42 am 
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Bruce Doull
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two center half forwards!?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:44 am 
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Ken Hunter
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how long before we forget the penalties etc and just ask

how are we going compared with the other clubs?

Asked at this point

the answer is

so/so

is that good enough?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:50 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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a needle pulling thread?






ouch.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:53 am 
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formerly BlueRob
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I heard KB this morning ... and as usual they were getting stuck into Carlton. Someone Carlton supporter rang up and indicated just how badly injuries had affected Carlton (Duigan, Laidler, Henderson, Yarran in particular out of the backline). Then some Collingwood bloke rang up saying ... what are Carlton going on about ... they had 13 players out when they played Carlton ... at which point KB and John Ralph agreed completely at what a good point he had made (audible nod of heads) .... HELLO ... Collingwood lost. What a pack of morons ... logic escapes them.

Anyway ... against Port we had 14 senior players unavailable ... against Geelong we will have 11. I know some of you blokes don't think that has any effect but I do. An argument can be mounted by saying we don't have enough depth ... and thats probably true ... but fair crack of the whip????

We are also in a major form slump ... we could change coaches every year for the next 10 years ... there will still be times when players are down. Unfortunately this has come at a very bad time. If I had to bet ... I would say we won't make the 8. Suck it up guys ... crap happens.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:54 am 
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Bruce Comben

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:56 pm
Posts: 21
moshe25 wrote:
I think that in the emotion of the past few days, some points have been lost. Just to be clear, I'm not laying the malaise at the feet of anyone in particular. But if you look at the whole situation logically and dispassionately, a few things stand out.

1. We have a draft in place that gives the bottom team first dibs at the best available talent.
2. If you're really down and out, you also get a priority pick.
3. There's a salary cap in place to ensure rich clubs don't have an unfair advantage.
4. Notwithstanding point 3, we (ie, Carlton) always seem to find a way to go beyond that anyway.

Now given all that, if everything else is equal, every club should theoretically rise to the top once every 16 years (now 18) and to the top 4 every 4 years or so. Now also, before you quote strangling draft penalties of 2002, just remember that they were
a) almost 10 years ago;
b) followed by a no.2, a no.4, and three no.1 draft picks; and
c) followed by fluking a top prospect with a no.45 draft pick (Simmo) and then later another one with a no.40 pick (Robbo).
So, the effect of the draft penalties has been well and truly offset by now.

The question then asks itself. Given all the equalisation that the AFL's social engineering has foisted upon the competition in terms of "cattle", and given that in that period, clubs like Sydney, Collingwood, and particularly WCE have truly prospered (and incidentally, managed to go down and then up again and win premierships, and play off in 8 GFs in the past 10 years); given all of that..........
THERE MUST BE SOMETHING AT PLAY BEYOND JUST HAVING THE AVAILABLE "CATTLE" !!!!!

If it were just about having the cattle, EVERY CLUB HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY. But how come St Kilda hasn't won 4 flags?? They had that many top 10 picks, it's not funny (Reiwoldt, Kosi, Clarke, Ball, etc). How come Melbourne has been a rabble for years?

The answer is, it takes more than just cattle. It takes a brilliant, top-class, professional organisation with a smart visionary leader whose job it is to lead and maintain a united board which can then
- employ a great CEO;
- search and select a good, innovative, flexible coach who has a blueprint for success;
- support a modern state-of-the-art football department which includes recruitment, development, coaching, selection, etc, and
- HOLD ALL OF THE ABOVE TO ACCOUNT for results.

For anyone who doesn't like the words "culture" and "environnment", the above is what I have meant by those words. Call it "footy club ethos" or call it "billbraxton" for all I care, but FFS, stop talking about injuries and stoppages and "if we can just get a CHF". None of them will make any difference!

Now, how do we accomplish this? I don't actually know. I'm not the one. But don't have a go at me for just talking. Our biggest problem is that this is not acknowledged, and IMO, until it is, we will continue to be a rabble, a laughing stock, and ultimately an irrelevancy like North Melbourne and Melbourne...... and, god forbid, Fitzroy!


Good thinking however is far too much doom and gloom for mine.....I think it can be approached in a far simpler way with far less boxes to tick to achieve on field success.....Your points are important for the Club however IMO the clear winners are Confidence & Motivation......we had both last year and up until round 3 this year....Its motivation & confidence that need to be managed.....regardless of organisation structure and calibre successs can still be achieved.....

My take is simple....our players have dropped their heads when overconfident - had some suceess last year - smashed the pies - thought it was going to be easy this year - got smashed by the bombers - had a few injuries - and have lost the mind set and now thinking negatively.....Its the job of Ratten and co & no higher to manage this which is why the turnaround has not happened......

Ratten is a plugger than learns through experience and reacts late IMO.....Is not overly inspiring....and this is the key problem.....Pending the personalisites within the playing group this determines the overall mindset of the group......In Carltons instance with players that are seemingling fragile mentally...the coaching group is critical.....If we had persoanlities such as Dermott Brereton or James Hird or Michael Voss in the playing group I suspect the downturn would not have been so great....Not for their talent but for their approach and response to adversity....to challenge....

Its the mix of mindsets bw coach and players that in my view is the problem...When we are good , we are good....When we are not we dont have anyone determined enough or strong enough mentally to make a stand and stop the rot.....

The Port example may be a hard enough message to rally the troups....For some "Teams" it takes being hit hard and hitting rock bottom mentally to stand up and have a crack....

If they can regain their motivation and confidence the boys will go a long way to competing against most sides......

Its Talent Plus ATTITUDE and in the latter we are severely lacking.....Re Capture it and I think we should be ok

If does not happen then its a high as the coaching group that needs to be looked at.....

The players so long as being payed well in comparison to the market couldnt care less about politics....The Just Want To Win Footy Games and Premierships and pick up chicks......Help them with their head space and They Will.

cheers


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Vale 1953-2020
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Posts: 11671
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I give up.

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After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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I hear a certain little lady called Nelly is coming in to give the boys a rev up on Confidence & Motivation.


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That’s not a political statement — it’s a harsh reality, and we must act,” she said. “He is a clear and present danger to the things that keep us strong and free. I support impeachment.”


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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moshe25 wrote:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I give up.


Yeah, nah, I see your point, I'm just going to totally disregard it because I feel like ranting for 4 pages in here as people are actually reading it, as opposed to what would happen if I started a new thread.

*40 million paragraphs about Gibbs deleted*

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