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 Post subject: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:24 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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Roy wrote:
Ratten said at the pre season launch that he wanted the players peaking at the pointy end of the season.

We have had form dips in the 2nd half of each season for the past 3 years. Ratten knows what he is doing.


Didn't he also talk about resting players like Geelong with a view to being primed for the finals?

Maybe he forgot Geelong didn't lose 4 of the first ten games last year :-)


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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:44 pm 
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Trevor Keogh
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BigKev wrote:
Quite an interesting comment from Gerard Whateley on 774 this morning. He compared Carlton with clubs like Essendon*, West Coast and Collingwood. He said that they relied on system whereas we relied on talent. If they lost players then they could more easily replace them and the new guy would know his role. Subsequently overall team performance wasn't diminished too much. When we lose too many players, or those in the top group lose form, we're in trouble.

I'm a traditional supporter of the incumbent, but that's damning for Ratten and Co.

I know it's what quite a few TCers have been saying for some time, but I mention it because to me it seems to have more credence when coming from a "neutral" observer. (with apologies to those TCers who I'm starting to think might be right!!).

PS - I'm not trying to start another Rat Bash, but Whateley has been quite bullish on Carlton for sometime and I think his subtle change of opinion is worthy of comment.

Good post. But losing the talent we have from any list is going to kill you. Look at Collingwood in round 3.

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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verbs wrote:
Judd no like structures:

Quote:
"If you're just standing in the spot, ticking off the structures, sometimes that can be lost. So if anything I think we should almost worry less about structures and more worry about playing with a bit of freedom, winning those critical contests and playing with reckless abandonment.

"Because, yes, while structures are important, structures don't pay the bills.''


http://m.news.com.au/Sport/fi1615806.htm


Not one of Judds best media moments.
Hopefully he meant that well, but there are some nasty spins that can be put on what he said, (isn't there Synners). :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:12 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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BigKev wrote:
verbs wrote:
Judd no like structures:

Quote:
"If you're just standing in the spot, ticking off the structures, sometimes that can be lost. So if anything I think we should almost worry less about structures and more worry about playing with a bit of freedom, winning those critical contests and playing with reckless abandonment.

"Because, yes, while structures are important, structures don't pay the bills.''


http://m.news.com.au/Sport/fi1615806.htm


Not one of Judds best media moments.
Hopefully he meant that well, but there are some nasty spins that can be put on what he said, (isn't there Synners). :wink:


I'd interpret it as Juddsuggesting that if we play against coaches instructions, we'd stand a better chance.

Which is not the kind of thing you want to be hearing from your captain.


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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Bruce Comben

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Judd's comments are an interesting one, basically highlights what everybody has seen since round 4 bar the coach...Carlton's structure is centered around outside run so sides have clogged the middle stymied the options and ratts hasn't changed it, the players realize it doesn't work when it's countered, injuries haven't helped but you can't tell me we've gone from good enough for top 4 to bottom 4 because of a few injuries (which came after we got found out anyway)...

Judd has basically given ratts a backhander here, structures don't pay the bills he reckons.

Should be interesting to see what they come up with from here...

Either way players having meetings away from the coaches to try and fix his stuff ups aren't a good look and doesn't give much confidence that they believe in what he is doing, he tried the old party line of ratts has our full support at the end but his comments on the system not working and the player group meeting have shed the light unfortunately....finals or bust from here for ratts as far as I'm concerned if he can turn it around with the injuries we have and get us into the 8 with the run we have he deserves another crack...if he loses control of the ship as the trend is suggesting he must go, at this point he clearly doesn't have the flexibility or technical ability to adapt quickly enough in the modern game, Judd's comments are evidence of this quiet clearly!


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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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JohnM wrote:
[
Which is not the kind of thing you want to be hearing from your captain.


Was Synbad a captain or just a sailor?

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:18 pm 
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Robert Walls
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With talent the only structure you really need is to go one on one, the more talented player should beat the least talented more often than not.

I wonder what the defending team would do if the team with the ball made their players stand alongside the players in the "Press" or "Zone", effectively making it 1 on 1 all over the ground.

Also, I would I to see someone use the flying V from the Mighty Ducks movie.....

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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yibbida wrote:
With talent the only structure you really need is to go one on one, the more talented player should beat the least talented more often than not.

I wonder what the defending team would do if the team with the ball made their players stand alongside the players in the "Press" or "Zone", effectively making it 1 on 1 all over the ground.

Also, I would I to see someone use the flying V from the Mighty Ducks movie.....


:grin:

Couldn't we get something from an old Disney movie, like a Mule or Zebra or get Herbie the Love Bug.

Dude, he's always on the winning side.

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Bizarre article. In all honesty, Judd's output hasn't been that fantastic and I can't see his philosophy of structure abandonment changing it much at all.

There's been a lot of talk this week. Really looking forward to watching the game on Friday to see if the talk will amount to anything.

Can Ratten be the runner? Sounds like the players aren't going to do what he says regardless.

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:58 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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murphy in one of his first interviews after the injury - i think it was the barrett interview

said he doesnt listen to the runner anyway - it was light hearted but im sure there was truth to it

barrett was trying to blame the coach/runner for telling murph to go in hard and causing the injury

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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It's the fishpond thing again.

Judd's been drinking dirty water and he's starting to sound eerily like Koutoufides... :|

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:04 pm 
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Vale 1953-2020
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GWS wrote:
It's the fishpond thing again.

Judd's been drinking dirty water and he's starting to sound eerily like Koutoufides... :|

Had the same thought myself.....

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Garry Crane
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well my interpretation of Judds comments are slightly different to most

my take is he was having a go at his team mates, who whilst following instructions on structure, are waiting for things to happen rather then taking ownership of situations and making things happen. almost sounds like they are too reliant on being spoon fed what to do by the coach rather than just going for it and using some instinct.

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 Post subject: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:23 pm 
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John Nicholls

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Nothing wrong with what Judd said, he is just saying the players need to jump in a grab the contested possession instead of sitting back and waiting for something to happen. Pretty obvious stuff I would have thought.


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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:30 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Last 2 posts nailed it - thank goodness!


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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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SurreyBlue wrote:
Last 2 posts nailed it - thank goodness!


Could be right.

I guess the water in the fish tank could be half clean or half dirty.

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:25 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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We're failing to make good decisions at the appropriate time at the moment.
If we're going to allow the opposition to keep numbers around and behind the ball, it is imperative that we focus on increasing the pressure.
Too often the ball goes into our forward line and comes straight back out. Our forwards need to understand the value of a stoppage when that's the case.
If we can tie the ball up and set up our press, it will greatly increase our opportunity to score.

Similarly our stoppages. If we're outnumbered, all we need is good chasing pressure to rush the opposition disposal. If we've set up well defensive side, we should win most contests.
Our biggest issue in this case is the opposition are afforded time and space to share the ball when they break from a stoppage. Perhaps Jeffy and/or eddie/Yazz should be given a bigger role in this case.

Yes talent is playing a role but we also have reasonable systems. Its the countering of recent tactics that are our biggest issue IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Blue Vain wrote:
We're failing to make good decisions at the appropriate time at the moment.
If we're going to allow the opposition to keep numbers around and behind the ball, it is imperative that we focus on increasing the pressure.
Too often the ball goes into our forward line and comes straight back out. Our forwards need to understand the value of a stoppage when that's the case.
If we can tie the ball up and set up our press, it will greatly increase our opportunity to score.

Similarly our stoppages. If we're outnumbered, all we need is good chasing pressure to rush the opposition disposal. If we've set up well defensive side, we should win most contests.
Our biggest issue in this case is the opposition are afforded time and space to share the ball when they break from a stoppage. Perhaps Jeffy and/or eddie/Yazz should be given a bigger role in this case.

Yes talent is playing a role but we also have reasonable systems. Its the countering of recent tactics that are our biggest issue IMO.


Nice take BV.
If we can see and understsnd this why can't the players and coach's?
If they can why can't something be done during the game?
Am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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redback wrote:
If we can see and understsnd this why can't the players and coach's?
If they can why can't something be done during the game?
Am I missing something?


I've been asking myself the same thing over the last few weeks, if you've got armchair pundits deconstructing what's going wrong why are some of the coaching staff saying "We don't know why we're out of form"?

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 Post subject: Re: System Vs Talent
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:58 am 
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Ken Hunter

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Wojee wrote:
redback wrote:
If we can see and understsnd this why can't the players and coach's?
If they can why can't something be done during the game?
Am I missing something?


I've been asking myself the same thing over the last few weeks, if you've got armchair pundits deconstructing what's going wrong why are some of the coaching staff saying "We don't know why we're out of form"?


..they know why, but they're not about to publicly admit bad coaching tactics,MC selection mistakes, and poor player effort..

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